2" Tape 16 track help?

[iomegaman]

This is obviously going to be a summer project so don't @me...but I am picking up a 2" 24/16 track tape machine that has been sitting for a while...its been in a smoke free studio and there's no telling when the last time it was run...yes I know its a "can-o-worms" but the price is in my "build budget" that I have not used at all this year or last and I want to take it on.

Here are the "knowns":

The machine is a 2" 24 machine with Ampex cards and a 3M transport , it currently has a 3M 16" butterfly head track on it which I have inspected and is in really good shape... has all 24 channels with Ampex cards that each have an input/output transformer on them (there's also inductors on some of the cards)...all cards are there...machine is 99% there with cables and everything the only thing missing is the drive belt...which of course might be a MAJOR problem...it has the 16 VU meter stack as well...

The company is "Bouse Manufacturing distributed by "Audio Concepts Dave Kelsey"...model 1600 apd

Obviously it will need a thorough going through and the biggest issue I am facing is a drive belt...

The worst case scenario is I end up with a decent head and a bunch of Ampex cards and a pile of metal scrap...the optimal scene is I find a way to resurrect it and push back into a more "analog" market just for kicks and giggles...those old capacitors are going to be huge question marks but from my limited research it was built in the 70's there is almost no info on this company (man I seem to be a magnet for old abandoned business goes bust gear from that era, looking at you Amerimex Console)...

Anyway it certainly looks 90% like the 3M M79 machines...the difference is in the control panel and switches...this is obviously a customized version...

So what are the chances there might be someone here who would know or know of a good resource for 3m belts/parts?

I'm headed to San Francisco next week and will try to stop by B.A.S.E. (Bay Area Studio Engineering) as they seem to be the west coast emporium of information for this stuff...

Anyone have any suggestions other than "Don't Do it Iomegaman!!!

 

[Brian Roth]

I have been working with analog recorders for decades and I still like them. I maintain a "fleet" of eight Ampex ATR-100's as well as a few remaining (in my region of the world) multitracks from Studer and MCI.

RUN DON'T WALK away from that contraption!! While the transport looks 3M-ish, it's unlike any I recall. The audio cards are NOT from Ampex.

If you decide to dive into that money pit, you better have a full set of documents which would be the size of a very large 3-ring binder.

Unless Michael Gore (aka Goreski) at B.A.S.E. is familiar with that contraption, I suspect he will have the same advice as me. Save your money and buy a real Studer/MCI/Ampex/Otari.

Bri

 

[radardoug]

I've gotta agree with Brian, and I'm currently building a Frankinpex myself! It will be a money pit.

 

[soapfoot]

Not to add to the discouraging opinions, but when you say you have inspected the heads, did you mean just a visual inspection with no magnification? Because that might not tell you everything.

The best way to evaluate heads is to send them off to JRF for a full report.

 

[iomegaman]

Not to add to the discouraging opinions, but when you say you have inspected the heads, did you mean just a visual inspection with no magnification? Because that might not tell you everything.

The best way to evaluate heads is to send them off to JRF for a full report.

Well no I have not sent them off, but I did physically inspect them with a jewelers loupe there's virtually no wear on them.

I suspect the belt not being there is the main reason for that.

The transformers look exactly like the Urei transformers from a Mod One...at least the line transformer did...the can transformer is not one I've seen before.

Came out of a Studio in Phx. and apparently was in the Rumbo Recorders studio prior to that...at least thats the history as related to me, who knows for sure.

 

[gyraf]

While tracing it's history, it's VERY much worth the while to look into who were in charge of service for it. One of them has the service manual....

/Jakob E.

 

[pucho812]

This is the only 3m style transport I know of. I have never seen a transport like that.

 

[MidnightArrakis]

This is obviously going to be a summer project so don't @me...but I am picking up a 2" 24/16 track tape machine that has been sitting for a while...its been in a smoke free studio and there's no telling when the last time it was run...yes I know its a "can-o-worms" but the price is in my "build budget" that I have not used at all this year or last and I want to take it on.

Here are the "knowns":

The machine is a 2" 24 machine with Ampex cards and a 3M transport , it currently has a 3M 16" butterfly head track on it which I have inspected and is in really good shape... has all 24 channels with Ampex cards that each have an input/output transformer on them (there's also inductors on some of the cards)...all cards are there...machine is 99% there with cables and everything the only thing missing is the drive belt...which of course might be a MAJOR problem...it has the 16 VU meter stack as well...

The company is "Bouse Manufacturing distributed by "Audio Concepts Dave Kelsey"...model 1600 apd

Obviously it will need a thorough going through and the biggest issue I am facing is a drive belt...

The worst case scenario is I end up with a decent head and a bunch of Ampex cards and a pile of metal scrap...the optimal scene is I find a way to resurrect it and push back into a more "analog" market just for kicks and giggles...those old capacitors are going to be huge question marks but from my limited research it was built in the 70's there is almost no info on this company (man I seem to be a magnet for old abandoned business goes bust gear from that era, looking at you Amerimex Console)...

Anyway it certainly looks 90% like the 3M M79 machines...the difference is in the control panel and switches...this is obviously a customized version...

So what are the chances there might be someone here who would know or know of a good resource for 3m belts/parts?

I'm headed to San Francisco next week and will try to stop by B.A.S.E. (Bay Area Studio Engineering) as they seem to be the west coast emporium of information for this stuff...

Anyone have any suggestions other than "Don't Do it Iomegaman!!!

Sometime ago, a guy who was restoring an original API mixing console from 1974 sent me "one each" of the different circuit cards that were in his old console (that he bought from someone else) in order that I could "Reverse-Engineer" them so he could have "ALL NEW/OLD" circuit boards for his newly-restored/old console. I am just mentioning this in case you would want and/or need to do the same with any of your tape deck circuit cards. Just a thought..... (NOTE: I have had a large aerospace corporation contact me to "Reverse-Engineer" a manually "hand-taped" circuit board designed back in 1979 that was being used within U.S. fighter jets so they could update the old design to modern "Surface-Mount" components using "Pick & Place" assembly technology. Just a bit of some of background history on this subject.....).

And.....because I am also a "Senior Mechanical Designer", I could also "Reverse-Engineer" any of the metalwork of your ancient tape deck should you need to replace anything that is bent up, damaged or simply needs being replaced. (NOTE: I have done a fair amount of sheet-metal "Reverse-Engineering" for both medical electronics firms and telecommunications companies).

Now.....only because I have offered to assist you in your restoration project here, some other member of this forum will enjoy reporting my posting here to one of the Moderators because they believe that I am either a "BOT", a "SPAMMER" or that I am "LOOKING FOR A JOB"!!! I'm just a lifelong "audio guy Old Fart" who works as a "Design Consultant" and I have the combined skill-set of being able to design both electronic chassis/enclosures/housings and all of the PCBs that go within them. My "Design Portfolio" is available to you upon request. Various "U.S. covert intelligence-gathering agencies" could vouch for my design work, but then they would have to kill you (that's a joke!!!). -- (But, it's TRUE!!!). The NRO (who?), the NSA, DHS, NASA and many others have all had me perform various electro-mechanical design engineering projects for them. But....."audio gear" is my thing!!!

/

 

[iomegaman]

This is the only 3m style transport I know of. I have never seen a transport like that.

Yeah pucho, after digging around this came out of the same studio in Phx that claims to have had a Stephens 16 track/I'm wondering if it isn't some sort of Stephens custom unit.. (although all the pics I've seen show the stacks held up by 2 post instead of a center post like this one)...same colors/etc...

The thing that throws everything off is the meter stack looks like a 3m M79 16 track...but the transport controls and the extra take up arms make it some sort of red-headed step child no one wants to claim.

Could just be a one-off.

I've read that John Stephens sometimes made custom units of his machines, and if it IS a Stephens then it will have those proprietary potted opamps hat he was so secretive about...(which I would not be afraid to try reverse engineering one or at least testing the bejeebers out of it to match it somehow)...

The Stephens 821B had a pretty decent rep, although I think I've read they were hard to maintain...this transport sort of follows the Stephens design, but he was basically taking 3M transports and modding them to his design.

I've already commited to buying it (its actually pretty cheap) and pick it up on Monday...I'll try and get real pics and post.

From what my research has turned up Stephens primarily targeted the film industry, even making some rare 32/40 track 2" machines...probably why I don't have much info on them they flew in rarer air than what I breathe.

I've read and hear both positive "swear by" and negative "swear at" positions re; Stephens machines.

 

[iomegaman]

Sometime ago, a guy who was restoring an original API mixing console from 1974 sent me "one each" of the different circuit cards that were in his old console (that he bought from someone else) in order that I could "Reverse-Engineer" them so he could have "ALL NEW/OLD" circuit boards for his newly-restored/old console. I am just mentioning this in case you would want and/or need to do the same with any of your tape deck circuit cards. Just a thought..... (NOTE: I have had a large aerospace corporation contact me to "Reverse-Engineer" a manually "hand-taped" circuit board designed back in 1979 that was being used within U.S. fighter jets so they could update the old design to modern "Surface-Mount" components using "Pick & Place" assembly technology. Just a bit of some of background history on this subject.....).

And.....because I am also a "Senior Mechanical Designer", I could also "Reverse-Engineer" any of the metalwork of your ancient tape deck should you need to replace anything that is bent up, damaged or simply needs being replaced. (NOTE: I have done a fair amount of sheet-metal "Reverse-Engineering" for both medical electronics firms and telecommunications companies).

Now.....only because I have offered to assist you in your restoration project here, some other member of this forum will enjoy reporting my posting here to one of the Moderators because they believe that I am either a "BOT", a "SPAMMER" or that I am "LOOKING FOR A JOB"!!! I'm just a lifelong "audio guy Old Fart" who works as a "Design Consultant" and I have the combined skill-set of being able to design both electronic chassis/enclosures/housings and all of the PCBs that go within them. My "Design Portfolio" is available to you upon request. Various "U.S. covert intelligence-gathering agencies" could vouch for my design work, but then they would have to kill you (that's a joke!!!). -- (But, it's TRUE!!!). The NRO (who?), the NSA, DHS, NASA and many others have all had me perform various electro-mechanical design engineering projects for them. But....."audio gear" is my thing!!!

/

Hey I appreciate the offer and you will be a resource I definitely will keep tabs on as I know my own limitations in spite of ignoring them.

The frame and machine itself seem to be in really good shape...its just an odd duck that birds of a feather seem to flock to.

 

[industrialarts]

The best way to evaluate heads is to send them off to JRF for a full report.

This is step one. If you don't do this first, don't buy the machine. I can't stress this enough. I used to be a freelance tech for multiple recording studios, I have worked on 100s of machines. Get the head report first, and JRF is the best, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Brian Roth]

Stephens ran through my mind, but the audio card setup is totally unlike any Stephens machine I ever saw, including the pair of Leon Russell's 40 track machines which I've serviced.

On the "Ampex" cards in the pix I see DIP chips, which Stephens didn't use. Also, the front panel pots on Stephens machines were the smaller-sized Allen Bradley pots. He also didn't use PC cards for audio, at least on the four multitracks I was around.

HOWEVER..... for $500 I'd be tempted to buy it myself! As if I have any need for a 2" machine at this point in my life. lol

Bri

 

[iomegaman]

Yeah Brian, I had a boss told me once a young man either gets wisdom or money, but now I'm so far past that it seems I either get treasure disguised as junk or junk disguised as treasure and its all in the eye of the bean counter...

I think the transformers alone might be worth the journey...I have an old Urei Mod One Radio Station control console thing and I swear the output line transformer looks almost identical...and the input is in a can...so...there might be treasure there or it might be junk.

The guy I'm getting it from is probably 30 years younger than me in an old homestead about an hour out of Tucson...TOTAL ANALOG recording studio in this really cool old place with wood floors in Oracle...

He wants bands to come in (no advertising only word of mouth) and tracks on Soundcraft TS12 straight into a tascam 16 track reel to reel, then he dumps that to an Otari 2 track, burns a disc and they're done.

There isn't even a hint of a DAW in his place...pretty cool but a bit off the beaten path. I think he's on here sometimes but I don't know his name here...

 

[pucho812]

Stephen’s used 3m transports until 3m refused to sell him any. Doesn’t look like any Stephen’s setup I have ever seen. I have some Stephen’s schematics that may help you but I don’t think it is a Stephen’s

 

[Brian Roth]

https://museumofmagneticsoundrecording.org/ManufacturersStephens.html
Includes a snapshot of Leon's 40 track that I used to service.

Bri

 

[iomegaman]

https://museumofmagneticsoundrecording.org/ManufacturersStephens.html
Includes a snapshot of Leon's 40 track that I used to service.

Bri

Pretty cool Brian...I cannot imagine the "tight rope" you probably had to walk in keeping those things serviced...I think people so often fail to see the depth of tech and people/machines that buoyed up so many of those classic hits...there's so much uninformed nostalgia that gets imposed via modern models of one guy in a studio mixing on a computer...there was a substantial army of tech and science that delivered those hits via tape decks, consoles and outboard gear...

I seriously doubt we will ever et the same kind of "audio magic" creating hits ITB that we had from heated up silicone and magnetic influence.

 

[MidnightArrakis]

Hey I appreciate the offer and you will be a resource I definitely will keep tabs on as I know my own limitations in spite of ignoring them.

The frame and machine itself seem to be in really good shape...its just an odd duck that birds of a feather seem to flock to.

Back during the late-1970's, I used to work in a small recording studio that had a STEPHENS 16/24-Track machine. The studio owner finally got fed up having to monkey around with it all of the time, sold it to another studio and then bought a STUDER 24-Track deck instead. NICE MACHINE!!! This studio also had a SPHERE Electronics 32-Channel mixing console that was really nice as well.

 

[Brian Roth]

A bit of a Stephens back story. Back in the 1970's I saw the Stephens' booth at an AES show and was amazed how simple the transport was....especially compared to an Ampex ATR-100 which also didn't have a pinch roller.

Fast forward into late 80's and a local studio in Okla City bought a 24 track from a studio in Dallas. It was only a bit cranky. I recall having to learn how to tweak the mechanical adjustments on the roller at the "U turn" in the tape path; that machine had a habit of deciding to run perfectly at speed, but in reverse in play mode.

Fast forward again to more recent times. One of my best friends for decades (now RIP) had worked for Leon (touring with him as guitarist, engineering at Leon's LA-area studio, etc). Ripley was tasked with digitizing Leon's bazillions of 2" masters, so he ended up with both 40 track machines as an indefinite "loaner". Many tapes were 24 track, many were 40 track. The confusing labels on the boxes (and a common lack of track sheets) meant each roll of tape was a New Mystery!

Steve had chosen one of the two 40 tracks as his go-to. It's the one in the pic at the site I linked above.

For a number of years, I had only a few service calls on that machine. It was built like a battleship and Steve digitized hundreds of hours of Leon's tapes.

I actually had more service calls related to Steve's Studer A-800 24 track compared to the Stephens.

Bri

 

[Disco Volante]

Regarding the missing drive-belt: Here in Southern Sweden I have a great mechanics supplier that will hunt down or have made any crazy drivebelt that I might need. I service a lot of older machinery (not only sound-related) and I suspect they find my various odd requests rather a fun challenge. Maybe there's something like that in your area?

Cool project. I am a big fan of fixing the unfixable.

 

[iomegaman]

Regarding the missing drive-belt: Here in Southern Sweden I have a great mechanics supplier that will hunt down or have made any crazy drivebelt that I might need. I service a lot of older machinery (not only sound-related) and I suspect they find my various odd requests rather a fun challenge. Maybe there's something like that in your area?

Cool project. I am a big fan of fixing the unfixable.

Totally with you on saving the lost pieces of our discarded culture...I have a hard time throwing away anything that is broken especially if I think it can be saved...I grew up in a preachers house so "Jesus Saves" has been nailed to my brain from early life, and if he can do it we can do it.