2x10 cab for guitar and bass

[bluetomgold]

First of all hello! I thought I'd ease myself in gently to the GroupDIY world with what should be a nice easy project, although it's possibly slightly unconventional. Progress isn't likely to be fast!

I've been trying to rationalise my gear and clearing out some of my guitar and bass amp collection. I don't want to sell my Traynor Bassmaster YBA-1a (90 watt bass head) or my Elpico AC88 (15 watt PA amp which sounds great with guitar) - but I'd like to get a reasonably compact speaker cab which will work well with both of them, and allow me to play bass and guitar - mainly at home, also some recording, and giggable if required.

I'm thinking about mixing bass and guitar specific speakers in a vertically stacked 2x10 cabinet as a kind of compromise. I've shortlisted the Celestion G10 Vintage and BL10 100X - partly because I'm in the UK and Celestion drivers look like good value.

Guitar tone is the priority but I'd like to get a usable bass sound.

FWIW up to now I've been using a pair of old Goodmans Audiom 12PG drivers in a sealed vertical cab which sounds pretty good with the Elpico / guitar but not brilliant with the Traynor / bass (it really likes a 2x15 cab but that's out of the question...) Best tone I got out of the Elpico was with a pair of vintage G12 greenbacks in a closed-back Orange PA cab.

I don't have huge amounts of space and 2x10 is probably as big as I want to go. Has anyone tried this or anything similar? I realise it will be something of a compromise, but I'm hoping that it might give me better sound than 2 smaller guitar / bass specific cabs.

OTOH, I suppose I could just swap around drivers in my existing 2x12 - it's big but I reckon I could just about get away with it...

Welcome your input!

 

[joaquins]

I'd probably go for a compact 1x12" for the guitar and 1x10"+1" or something like that for the bass. I've heard one with that config for a bass that kicked many ***** around. I guess the Trace driving it didn't have anything to do with that...

The total space needed is the same and much better optimisation doing that. While it's usually fine playing guitar in a bass cab you won't get the best tone balance out of it. I don't see the point of having two speakers that doesn't really cut it for either of them instead of having two small nice boxes one for each. With a 20W amp and a 1x12 in the guitar you could play for ~100 people without amplification, reasonable clean even with a loud drummer, I've been there. For the bass that config is more than enough for a small stage counting with a proper power amp.

JS

 

[bluetomgold]

I don't see the point of having two speakers that doesn't really cut it for either of them instead of having two small nice boxes one for each.

I suppose the main idea is that the bass speaker gets a larger volume of air behind it, so I get better bass extension than I would from a smaller cab. I've been toying with the idea of running separate inputs to both speakers so that I can run one or both speakers, depending on whether volume or tone is the priority - I suppose in this case the disconnected speaker will work like a kind of passive radiator - not sure whether this will be significant - I welcome views on this.

In a gig situation I can wire up both speakers and have more volume. My gut feeling is that for guitar the bass driver will just beef things up a bit without changing the character too much. It's got a lower rated efficiency and I'd expect a less peaky midrange. OTOH adding the guitar speaker when playing bass is likely to add quite a lot of mid - I'm less confident that this will be a pleasing effect, and considering using some kind of switchable crossover to tame it.

2 smaller cabs is obviously an option and I agree that it's a safer bet, but I can't see the Traynor getting much out of a 1x10... maybe.

 

[johnheath]

Hi…

I believe that you should go for two different cabs… one for guitar and one for bass.

Also to be able to answer what you could use you could tell us what kind of music you play, meaning if you play distorted or a lot of soloing, clean, twang or whatever because choosing suitable speaker for a DIY cab is based on many things.

Also there is a reason why they produce "bassline" speaker for bass cabs and amps.

Bass cabs are usually more rigid in their construction due to the need of solid walls to mount the speakers since they are the ones moving the air… some very popular guitar amps have a quite "loose" (thin) speaker wall which contributes to its specific sound… like the Fender tweed bassman… which was intended for bass players from the beginning… I guess that no bass player of today use that amp for bass anyway.

Also some speakers have more definition than others and I guess that it might be suitable to read all about them before deciding which one to buy?

Personally I prefer a tube amp with tube rectifier to get some more "sag" combined with a pretty tough speaker like the Celestion Vintage 30… I play rockabilly and "classic" rock… on the electrics that is =).

Regards

/John

 

[bluetomgold]

Given the (so far) negative response I'm inclined to change tack and instead look at working with the 2x12 cabinet I have now to see how feasible this idea is before I start spending money. It sounds pretty good with guitar as it stands. The old Goodmans speakers date from an era where bass, guitar, and PA speakers were often interchangable and as it happens the contemporary Goodmans brochure claims equal suitability for bass or guitar.

I never really put it through its paces with bass, my initial response (using the Elpico) was that it was a bit muddy and lacking bass weight. The more I think about it the more I think I might not have actually tried it with the Traynor (bass head). I think first step is to have another listen - with bass and guitar, using both amps - and work out exactly what it is I'm looking for.

FWIW I play jangly lo fi indie kind of stuff on the guitar. I like single coils and the bit between clean and distortion. Usually I want my bass to sound like James Jamerson's.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I'm thinking about mixing bass and guitar specific speakers in a vertically stacked 2x10 cabinet as a kind of compromise.

Mixing different loudspeakers in a common enclosure is not a good idea.
Guitar and bass require different characteristics; as a compromise, identical speakers may be used for guitar and bass, but they need to be in a closed-box for bass. Guitar players generally prefer open-box for guitar.
Marshall 4x12's are closed-box, whatever the use, guitar or bass. It's a matter of taste, after all.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I've been toying with the idea of running separate inputs to both speakers so that I can run one or both speakers, depending on whether volume or tone is the priority - I suppose in this case the disconnected speaker will work like a kind of passive radiator - not sure whether this will be significant - I welcome views on this.

Very bad idea! The disconnected speaker would suck the sound coming from the other. Shorting the unused speaker would be a lesser evil.

 

[bluetomgold]

Mixing different loudspeakers in a common enclosure is not a good idea.

Can you please explain why not? I've used cabinets with mixed speakers before and had good results - in fact for recording (close miking) it was nice to have the option of different sounding speakers.

The disconnected speaker would suck the sound coming from the other. Shorting the unused speaker would be a lesser evil.

You've lost me here... surely the disconnected speaker would only have a passive/acoustic effect so how would shorting it make any difference?

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Mixing different loudspeakers in a common enclosure is not a good idea.

Can you please explain why not? I've used cabinets with mixed speakers before and had good results - in fact for recording (close miking) it was nice to have the option of different sounding speakers.

The main issue is that none of the speakers sound like it should because of teh interactions.

The disconnected speaker would suck the sound coming from the other. Shorting the unused speaker would be a lesser evil.

You've lost me here... surely the disconnected speaker would only have a passive/acoustic effect so how would shorting it make any difference?

Shorting it makes it stiffer, so it doesn't suck as much sound.

 

[bluetomgold]

Shorting it makes it stiffer, so it doesn't suck as much sound.

Just tested this on a driver I have lying around and you're right. Thank you - I've learned something, and as I think about it, of course it makes sense. I think that even as the lesser of two evils, it's a good idea.

 

[CJ]

mixing speakers might be bad for a home stereo cab, but the best sounding amp I ever had used a jensen guitar speaker on one side and a celestion bass speaker (billy g model) on the other, so you get the bottom with the bass speak, and the mid-hi range with the git speaker,

this is exactly like using two different  guitar amps at the same time only different, 

best way to find a good speaker cab is to go down to the music store with your git and amp and play thru everything they have,

Roland uses a 2-10 setup in there Jazz Chorus 70 and it sounds alright, there was an old Fender, maybe a Tremolux of Vibrasonic with a 2-10 setup also,

 

[abbey road d enfer]

mixing speakers might be bad for a home stereo cab, but the best sounding amp I ever had used a jensen guitar speaker on one side and a celestion bass speaker (billy g model) on the other, so you get the bottom with the bass speak, and the mid-hi range with the git speaker,

I won't disagree with that, but it's an exception to the rule. There are indeed many exceptions that work, but it's a process of trial and error. Doesn't work right more often.

this is exactly like using two different  guitar amps at the same time only different, 

No, it's not. The two speakers in a common box react with each other in a very complex way; admittedly, it's less prejudicial for an open cab than for a BR or closed-box.

best way to find a good speaker cab is to go down to the music store with your git and amp and play thru everything they have,

It doesn't mean that putting the same speakers in an other box will work right; even more so if mixing different types.

Roland uses a 2-10 setup in there Jazz Chorus 70 and it sounds alright, there was an old Fender, maybe a Tremolux of Vibrasonic with a 2-10 setup also,

My go-to amp is a not-so-old ('96) Vibrolux reverb with dual 10's. Mine came with unmarked AlNiCo  speakers.
Surprizingly, the response is rather bass-heavy; I routinely have Bass at 10 o'clock and treble at 2 o'clock. that's with P90's, Tele or Strat (no HB's).
A "new" model is available as the '68 Custom Vibrolux Reverb, equipped with Celestion TEN 30's.

 

[bluetomgold]

There are indeed many exceptions that work, but it's a process of trial and error.

While I appreciate the advice that's been offered (to follow a conventional path), I'm OK with this being a process of trial and error and pleased to hear CJ got good results out of a similar setup.

No, it's not. The two speakers in a common box react with each other in a very complex way; admittedly, it's less prejudicial for an open cab than for a BR or closed-box.

I wonder to what extent mixing different speakers exacerbates this or (more importantly) causes practical problems? After all, as far as I understand it, matched speakers in a common box will also interact in a complex (and sometimes unpredictable) way due to phase cancellations, cabinet losses and absorbtion, variations in off-axis output etc. That doesn't neccesarily equal "bad" sound. As CJ says this ain't HiFi...