a new Guitar product for the sceptics

[nacho459]

[quote author="SPG"]Not to stoke the fire or anything, but come on. This argument has no resolution. However, I will side with Kev on this one. There's alot to be said for convenience, especially in the live area. Will it take the place of a Martin? Of course not. Use it for what it can do appropriately. Remember that 90% of the fancy sonic crap we do is for ourselves and other engineers. I'd rather people made musically kick ass records with imitation stuff than the same old boring **** with awesome gear.[/quote]

I agree with you except for the 90% part. Good gear helps make good recordings, and everyone can enjoy that. I think the quantity of poor recordings has lowered the standard for what makes a quality record.

I am basing my own opinion from my own experience with PODs and the Line 6 amps. I think about 95% of real guitar amps sound like Crap, so in those cases a Line 6 isn't so bad. I have never been able to get a good sound that I liked out of a Line 6.

I am not trying to be a gear snob. I don't believe that more money makes better gear. My favorite clean guitar tone is from the Fender M-80. An amp that goes for about $100 on ebay. I just don't want to see a future where DSP is the standard. We have already become so content with synth strings that we forget what a real orchestra sounds like. the other day I experienced an orchestral performance with no sound reinforcement except for the room reflections. I was floored by how good it sounded, better than any recording I ever heard come out of Todd-AO.

I feel that we hit a threshold in audio equipment years ago, and now all we are worrying about is making things cheeper, instead of better. Yes I think PT, MIDI, and even DSP is a gift from God. But there is little persuit in making things sound better. Most people would agree that the best sounding gear was built before the 60s. With all the technology in the past 40 years we should be able to make gear that is not just quieter but sonically better.

I am not trying to talk down on any one. After all I own a PT rig, a lexicon processor, and a couple Emu synths. I have never heard anything by Line 6 that I wanted to use. There is always a downside to convenience, usually a drop in quality. That is one of the reasons I am on this board. I can't afford the cool vintage gear, so I have to learn to build it myself. I could just buy all Bheringer gear, and most of my clients probably wouldn't care. But I want to make the best recordings I can. So if that requires building my own gear, borrowing / renting gear, or using less gear so be it.

 

[nacho459]

PS, I understand the Up sides to Line 6 amps for giging. I'm mainly talking about recording.

 

[josan]

There is a video at Line 6 that shows the guitar in operation
I see live applications but the virtual capo no !! as for recording
great for scratch tracks maybe wonder if it runs on phantom

 

[JPrisus]

[quote author="bluebird"]

the very high end and super detail when going into distortion were not always there...but they were over all very fun to play with, and I would say very useful in a studio situation. [/quote]

That's how I feel about the LineSux amps too... they get the nuts and bolts down pat, it's that extra 10% that gets lost in translation somewhere. and to me that 10% is critical, but i'm also an anal freak with guitars and amps.


[quote author="bluebird"]Line 6 stuff is cool on its own as long as you don't expect to have perfect emulaiotn and kind of use the products as tools to do things a little differently. Like using a drum machine for its sound and not trying to make it be real drums.[/quote]

well said, regarding any company/product for that matter. At the end of the day, it's all a tool for a job, a means to an end.

 

[JPrisus]

[quote author="nacho459"]PS, I understand the Up sides to Line 6 amps for giging. I'm mainly talking about recording.[/quote]

what i find ironic is the number of guitarists who say that Line6 amps suck live but are amazing in the studio. I beg to differ, almost to the point of fisticuffs. They BLOW in the studio, but are more than adequate in most live situations where the fine details are lost.

 

[Kev]

Even with in the recording environment there is merit with some of this gear.

I do use Amp Farm during the recording process. These things can be very efficient during the workshopping of an idea. Things like JV1080's were a staple diet of the jungle and add music maker.

There is a world of music that has nothing to do with winning a Grammy.

If a band came to me and said we have an idea.
We will all ware Head Sets and IEMs use crap sound modules like 1080's and use fake guitars like the above.
Everything recorded onto Hard Drives.
Use the same recorded material for Live Shows and for the Albums.
All gigs and shows will be with a provided PA that works.
:shock:
We supply the Band's IEM system to follow us everywhere.
All Gigs will be during daylight hours so you can be asleep by 10:00.
Pay the correct fee to you for Recording and Live Gigs.
:green:
We might even be able to fit two shows in an afternoon.
Lots of fine looking settled and sensible women to look at.
:?
All meals and accommodation provided.
:green: :green:
Dream Gig!
BUT
we might ware bright single coloured T shirts and be called the Wiggles.



I would take the gig.

Professional comes in many shapes and sizes.
AND so does the gear.

 

[nacho459]

[quote author="JPrisus"]what i find ironic is the number of guitarists who say that Line6 amps suck live but are amazing in the studio. I beg to differ, almost to the point of fisticuffs. They BLOW in the studio, but are more than adequate in most live situations where the fine details are lost.[/quote]

:shock: I've never met any one who liked Line 6 in the studio, but not live.

Most people I know that use Line 6 stuff live usually borrow / rent an amp for recording. Between my buddy and myself we have about a dozen guitar amps so usually we can find something they like, but sometimes I have players, usually it's their first time recording who demand they use their Line 6.

 

[Flatpicker]

[quote author="josan"]There is a video at Line 6 that shows the guitar in operation...[/quote]Yeah, did you watch that, Kev? I play acoustic and I thought the video was impressive. They weren't at Summer NAMM, so I haven't played the thing myself, yet.

As far as Line6 stuff, before the PODxt I thought they sounded better than any other amp modeler around, but that wasn't saying much. But since the PODxt and even more, the latest firmware update, I'm blown away! You gotta use TLC and know how to tweak it up just right, but folks it's really close!

 

[jrmintz]

After spending two weeks recording a very expensive Line 6 head whose name I can't remember (Vetta? I kept thinking of Italian motor scooters), my take on their models purely as a recording tool was this: the reason they sometimes don't sound good recorded is because they're finished sounds. We would take raw sounds and process them in ways that would ultimately sound similar, but with one important difference - we would make an esthetic decision that that was the correct processing for the particular tune. With those amp models they might be good sounds in the abstract but totally wrong, and there's very little you can do about it as the engineer - not without making an enemy of the guitar player. I feel the same way about synth strings when I'm arranging - it's very hard to get the right size and makeup ensemble from a box, regardless of how good they sound. Who cares if the strings sound good if the record sucks? I'm really not dumping on Line 6. I have a pod and amp farm and they're very useful products - my highest praise - and I've had good experiences with the company. Like most things it's not the tool, it's the fool.

But since the PODxt and even more, the latest firmware update, I'm blown away! You gotta use TLC and know how to tweak it up just right, but folks it's really close!

Wow, that's really high praise from an acoustic player. I guess if you know how to get the right sound for the song, it's just another tool in the box.

 

[JPrisus]

[quote author="Flatpicker"]
But since the PODxt and even more, the latest firmware update, I'm blown away! You gotta use TLC and know how to tweak it up just right, but folks it's really close![/quote]

It's about as close in comparison as say a UAD Pultec plug-in is to a well-cared-for original. Which isn't saying much in my opinion, but hey, they both have their uses.

Yes, i'm very picky and somewhat snobby, but i'll give anything a listen at least once or twice. :thumb:

I also care a lot more about how things like amps and gear sound in context of a mix, rather than hearing it by itself. Night and day.

 

[W.H. London]

I'm sorry but I can't believe that this is even a topic. it's total crap.

granted, Line 6 has its place... in 40 year old mens bedrooms who don't gig.

why would anyone in their right mind want to use any Line 6 gear in a live application? if you're going to play for people, give them something good to listen to. I mean come on!

if your'e going for a specific sound, go for IT. not a immitation. and don't say you don't have the money for the goods. deals are out there, go find them.

and the issue of a Line 6 head being better because of the weight issue is a bunch of wuss BS. this is rock n roll. be a man! my head weighs 65lbs!

 

[JPrisus]

hehehe... i'm going to sleep right now with a HUGE smile on my face after reading that last post! :sam: :green: :grin:

 

[SonsOfThunder]

I don't want to get caught in the crossfire here, but I'll risk it and make a couple of comments.

I grew up listening to my dad play a '56 Gibson J45 in the livingroom, so I feel I have a wonderful point of reference as to what a "good" guitar sounds like. :green: I grew up in Nashville and got to listen to TONS of live music...various genres, not just C&W! I mean, I went to the Ryman when there was no airconditioning...but there was a lot of other stuff I experienced too.

I experienced an orchestral performance with no sound reinforcement except for the room reflections. I was floored by how good it sounded, better than any recording I ever heard come out of...

What does this statement really say? I think it says volumes! Recordings don't sound like live performances...period. In a typical recording there are tons of manipulations, compression, eq, etc! "Distortions" of all kinds! I use this word to mean any deviation from the original sound. This is not to say that recordings don't sound amazing, wonderful, etc. But gentlemen, let's be realistic with ourselves!

All that said...if Kev can make this thing work...go for it! But, I think I see a potential problem with that virtual capo, which it sounds like you are counting on. If the guitar makes any "acoustic" sound (which it will) and said sound bleeds into the vocal mic (which is highly likely) it will clash with the virtual sound somethin' terrybull methinks!

If it works for you, (ie. you can use it and make a living) it works! -- If it sounds good, it is! -- Same thing. No need to slam people for the tools they use if they get their job done. "Dude, I don't like that hammer you're driving nails with...they suck!"

HTH! Peace!
Charlie

 

[nacho459]

[quote author="W.H. London"]if you're going to play for people, give them something good to listen to.[/quote]

True, I think you can really blow someone away with good tones even if they are an MP3 kid. People who hate Mp3s are the people who can hear how bad Mp3s sound. People who can hear how bad Mp3s sound have been exposed to good sound. How are people supposed to be exposed to good sound if the people making the music keep compromising down to their level? Give people some credit. I once thought my walkman sounded awesome, but over the years my ears have become more discerning. If it wasn't for people showing me what a REAL Marshall sounded like, I would still be content with a Valvestate.

Sound can be a downward spiral or an upward spiral. We can make things sound better, or we can compromise.

You don't need a Gold Top or a Million pedals to sound good either. The best guitar I have ever heard is my friend's home made strat that he built in Jr High wood shop. The thing has better tone and as much sustain as any Les Paul. One of my favorite amps is a DIY Trainwreck that another buddy built out of an old film projector amplifier for bout $200.

[quote author="W.H. London"]and the issue of a Line 6 head being better because of the weight issue is a bunch of wuss BS. this is rock n roll. be a man! my head weighs 65lbs![/quote]

Yeah, I agree with this. If an amp is too heavy get a furniture dolly or a hand truck.

 

[Guest]

Love the comment on the 40 Year old in the bedroom who doesn't gig any more...

mmhh - sound like me...

Been a guitarist ever since I was 14 and saw Hendrix playing that cool outro jazzy/bluesy on the end of the Woodstock film onthe 10th anniversary of Woodtsock on Germany TV. *get your calculators out for that one).

I have recorded in studios, had records out, played hundreds if not thousands of sh**ty gigs, offered the BIG record contract (and I mean big) and everything - and if I would ever gig again I would take my Gibbo 335 and Marshall stack
For intimate gigs I would use my Taylor 412CE Ltd edition thingie in weird wood...

However......
I also have a Variax 500 and a Pod Pro (and a Bass Pod come to that)...
For my studio work I use these to get sounds to sit in the mix right....
It's all right having a fantastic tone and guitar - but hands up - who uses the track from a mic'd up amp and great guitar straight to tape and then ixed with nothign added or subtracted?
Not allowed to use any EQ or compression or a touch of reverb or delay to sit it in the mix properly.... anybody ever done that?
In fact you are going to add colour to the sound just from the circuitary in the mixer....

Now for years and years and years - I was a die hard analogue is best especially when it comes to guitars....

However - when I track and write songs - I demo them on the Variax and Pod - if they get past the demo stage - fine....
If they sound a bit wrong, even after changing the settings and models - then I re-record using the top end stuff I have... and if that still doesn't work then I have to re-write it (or rarrange it as a piano or brass piece etc..)

There are problems with the Variax - the neck is a bit urghh - the volume of the output across the strings can fluctuate a bit (check the top E and B strings when using the Sitar)

With reference to the acoustic 700 - I am not really interested - for strumming the 500 is fine - for fingerpicking I would tend to use my Taylor.

I use alternate tunings a lot (Nick Drake, Stones and Crowes stuff) - but just retune when needed.

However when Variax come out with a Bass - I am first in line.......

Hope this is more constructive....

 

[marxx]

Kev,
just a thought...
If you're choosing the variax for instant alternate tuning you're going to face a problem:
you'll hear the acoustic (standard tuned-direct) sound together with the "electronic" (alternate tuned-thru amps/monitor/whatever).
Can be confusing if the monitor volume is low....

Hope I made myself clear, english writing/speaking is not my forte.
Ciao
Marco

 

[robomatique]

On the Franz Ferdinand album they put the whole mix of one of the songs thru a pod, just turning off the cabinet and using the fender pre amp, so if it works it works...

I haven't heard the album myself, but I have heard good things about it, the engineer apparently was a genius to get the right sound as well as getting the band to get in the right mood with the right energy for that kind of music. I beleive it is the same engineer who did all the Cardigan stuff.

Robert

 

[Frank]

Each and every little recording doo-dad, tool in the scruffy old box, and/or sonic toy, is perfectly useful and has a place in the big scheme of recorded things.

There are many paths, Siddhartha. Many paths.

 

[Guest]

[quote author="marxx"]Kev,
just a thought...
If you're choosing the variax for instant alternate tuning you're going to face a problem:
you'll hear the acoustic (standard tuned-direct) sound together with the "electronic" (alternate tuned-thru amps/monitor/whatever).
Can be confusing if the monitor volume is low....

Hope I made myself clear, english writing/speaking is not my forte.
Ciao
Marco[/quote]
The Variax has a dummy acoustic body that does not emit any sound - you will hear the sounds of the strings resonating in standard tuning - but there is no soundhole (it's a black disk I think)

 

[marxx]

[quote author="uk03878"][/quote]
The Variax has a dummy acoustic body that does not emit any sound - you will hear the sounds of the strings resonating in standard tuning - but there is no soundhole (it's a black disk I think)[/quote]

From a quick look at line6.com the variax 700 has a standard, albeit smallish, acoustic body but I may be wrong (never seen it "in the flesh").

To Kev,
no tool is the "holy grail" of tools, but I think you should try the 700, it may works for you.

Anyway, modeling is cool
Marco (long time VG8 owner)