advice needed on wiring tube ac heaters . . .

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strangeandbouncy

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Messages
2,112
Location
West Sussex. UK
Dear all,

I am about to finish my gyraf/pultec eq. I have found a gorgeous Parmeko"marine" series mains trafo nos. SOOOO beautiful, i had to have it! it has 6.3ac at @1amp, so more than enough for 2 ecc88's. Question is, if i use 6.3vac, should the (twisted) heater supply cables be as close to, or as far away from the chassis as possible? Does it matter? Should I try to "balance" the heater supply with a pot?(hum trim?) if so, what kind of value is appropriate? I seem to remember a 50 Ohm pot from the dim and distant past . . . . Maybe it is possible to use a dc voltage for the heater. Is it possible to do this from only 6.3vac, or would, say, LM317 fail at such a low voltage?

Please forgive me if such info is available round these parts, but I have not found anything so far . . .


Many thanks again, as ever!


ANdyP
 
I would try 2 ea. 100 ohm resistors to ground off of each leg, as if you use a pot, it should be a high dollar Cermet (ceramic - metal ) job, or is that for the fixed bias pot, heck I forgot.

Anyway, you can make 6 volts dc from 6.3 ac.
6.3 charges up to 8.88, then gets sucked dowbn by the heaters to about 8.0643873694, so you should be alright on the reg fopr headroom.

If you want to skip the regs, you could use one of these "60 year old guy who has built ten thousand tube projects and am fed up with regulators so now I do this:" type of circuit >

http://vacuumbrain.com/The_Lab/Power_Supplies/fil_1.jpg
http://vacuumbrain.com/The_Lab/Power_Supplies/fil_3.jpg
http://vacuumbrain.com/The_Lab/Power_Supplies/fil_4.jpg
http://vacuumbrain.com/The_Lab/Power_Supplies/fil_5.jpg
http://vacuumbrain.com/The_Lab/Power_Supplies/fil_7.jpg

Use one of them big honkin bridge retcfiers that gets bolted down with heatsink grease or pad and is the size of an API opamp for years of trouble free service.
If you really hate breking down, use a 400 volt 5 amp job so you can plug the tube in backwards, put 300 B+ on the bridge by mistake, and it just loofs along like nutin happened.


cj
 
I'd put the wires close to the chassis just for mechanical stability. The electric fields are small and the magnetic fields mostly cancel with the twist.

Balancing for lowest hum is a good practice. Use a decent wirewound pot with a good power rating, and don't move the wiper too far off center or you will overload it in the simple typical circuit where the wiper is tied to ground.

DC heaters have their proponents but are often not needed. If you want to make regulated 6.3V d.c. you will be marginal, usually, with even a low dropout regulator. You get about 7.7V on peaks out of a bridge rectifier (8.9V - 1.2V) fed from a 6.3VAC winding, and then you have to filter that so that the dips of the ripple don't go much lower, which means a big capacitor.

When making d.c. filament supplies I usually start with 7.5VAC and use a discrete low dropout regulator as well.
 
Is it possible to do this from only 6.3vac, or would, say, LM317 fail at such a low voltage?

I guess the LM317 could provide a fine 6.3Vdc at the current you require. I thought I once used a 7805 (TO-220) with its gnd-terminal lifted by two diodes; the improved specs of the '317 will likely be ignored by the heater :wink:.
FWIW (since: as long as well within +/-10%) you can adjust more properly with the '317 to 6.3Vdc though.


Bye,

Peter
 
Heater lines well-twisted, preferably tight to a metal chassis with all audio nodes and parts well away from the chassis. Bring the heater wires away from the socket at a right angle, not zig-zagged under the audio circuit.

50 or 100 ohms is a reasonable humdinger. I suspect a higher value like 1K will work well too. If you go to 50 ohms, note that this is 6.3V/50= 0.126 Amps, 3/4 Watts, a significant added load on a 2-tube system.

A refinement is to take the humdinger wiper to about +50 volts, such as a tap on your bleeder resistor. Use about 0.1uFd to ground to keep AC impedance low.

No, it is not usually possible to make a good solid 6VAC from 6VDC, because of rectifier drops and ripple; much less regulate it. And bad DC is much worse than clean AC.
 
Is it possible to do this from only 6.3vac, or would, say, LM317 fail at such a low voltage?
Oops, just saw the '317 - you want to do it from the 6.3Vac of course. So what PRR said yes.
If you insist on DC and can still deliver enough current you can use voltage-doubling to give the regulator more room to work.
 
You can also play with switching the leads of the heater lines, so as to make hum from one tube cancel the other.

Boy, a lot of quick responses, I guess that 3 dollar gas is keeping people home this holiday weekend.
 
NJM2396F63-ND (digikey) 6.3VDC 1.5A LDO regulator. I use these and they work great. rectify the 6VAC and you should get around 8.4VDC. feed this to the regulator with plenty of bypassing on both sides.
 
Wow!

That was awesome! loadsa opinions! Lots of options for me to try tomorrow!

CJ - you meen gas is ONLY $3 A GALLON????? you lot must be stuck in a timewarp! we pay 90 pence a LITRE here! Hell, that's progress . . .still, we do have much smaller cars with much smaller engines chucking out much less polution on our much smaller part of the planet . . . Still, I might just pop by for a tank fill or two!

Think I'll try a hum pot first - gotta be cheaper/simpler in the short run! as well as the CJ "swap" with PRR right angled wires before any silcon solution.

Thanks guys, you lot are the bestest!


ANdyP
 
A couple of quick questions regarding these posts:

1. Why is having the heater wires close to the chassis beneficial? Is it just to get the electric fields from the AC as far away from the other components as possible? What is the mechanical advantage?

2. Can someone explain the theory of how a hum balance circuit works? I'm familiar with the implementation, but not the operating principles.

Thanks,
Chris
 
Two things PRR posted are very good point Bad DC is worse than good AC. In a microphone build I had some SMALL spikes(on a scope) in the dc you could hear it in the microphone.

Rasing the fil voltage above ground is a good thing even a little bit. If you look at some older tube amps with cathode biased output stages you might see the fil supply ref off the "top" of the output cathode resistor.
 
The main problem with dc heaters is where to put those caps.

pwr_4.jpg
 
Another drawback to d.c. filament supplies: when you rectify with a cap input from solid state rectifiers you get big peak currents in the trafo. This often causes momentary saturation of the core and both contamination of the other outputs in a multi-winding trafo, and radiation of spiky magnetic fields.

The latter will happen whether ir's a toroid or not. The cure is limiting the current, but most ways of doing this will be even less efficient than things are to begin with, such as inserting some resistance. It also helps to use a big mother choke, but that's bulky and expensive and you need to know what you are doing to size it and the other filter components properly. The choke is another source of magnetic radiation too.

You can also way-oversize the winding but once again cost and bulk are involved.

Most rectifier diodes also generate really high frequency noise when reversing polarity, so-called reverse recovery spikes. These can be damped out with suppression networks across the diodes, and you can source diodes that have a controlled recovery characteristic with less high freq energy. But once launched into the circuit these spikes can get into low level stages and really screw things up when they are partially rectified, especially in bipolar semiconductor inputs. Happily tubes are less susceptible but not totally immune if it's bad enough. Of course you get these spikes from other power supply rectification as well, but the currents involved in filament supplies are much higher and the potential for trouble significant.

You can use silicon schottky diodes which are much better and also have lower forward drop than the standard Si diodes. The new silicon carbide schottkies are great but have a high forward drop.
 
TK,

Keeping the heater leads pressed against the chassis keeps the radiated field at a minimum, since the big ground plane is there to suck it up. This is generally the best approach. Another method which can work in some cases is to fly the leads high above the sockets, keeping them far away from the rest of the wiring. This distance reduces coupling into the signal circuits. That's what was done in Fender guitar amps. In either case, the main thing is to keep the heater leads away from the signal wiring.

Electromagnetic and capacitive coupling is greatest between parallel conductors and least between perpendicular conductors, which is why (as PRR points out) when signal leads must cross the path of heater leads, they should do so at right angles.

As for how a "humdinger" works, let's start by exploring why a heater circuit should be referenced to circuit ground in the first place. When the heater supply is floating, and it couples into the signal circuits (usually via leakage to cathodes, since that's the nearest electrode to the heater), its "return" to the low side of the circuit is strictly through electromagnetic and capacitive leakage paths. Without an electrical connection to fix the amplitude of the heater voltage to 6.3VRMS from the amplifier's perspective, a large amount of hum is induced.

Anyone who's touched a finger to the tip of a cord plugged into a guitar amp, or forgot to hook up the ground clip on his scope when looking at a circuit that didn't already share the scope's ground reference, is familiar with the amount of ruckus that occurs with a floating input voltage.

Grounding one side of the heater will reduce the noise considerably, and indeed that's as far as they chose to go in some designs. But why not take the next step and try to cancel it out even more? If, instead of connecting your reference to one side of the heater, you instead place it halfway between the two sides, you will make the hum voltage differential with respect to the cathode (or grid, or whatever else is picking up hum from the heaters)--in other words, two signals of equal instantaneous amplitude, but opposite polarity. So they cancel out. Some choose to do this with fixed resistors, others use a pot to allow you to fine-tune the balance.

The heater current does not flow through this reference--it just flows from one side, though the heater, and returns to the other side. So the actual amplitude of the heater voltage across the heaters is not affected, but its amplitude as seem by the amplifier can be reduced nearly to zero. Essentially, since the heater voltage is always going to couple into the amplifier to some extent, much better to inject two half-amplitude but opposed-polarity hum voltages rather than one full-amplitude hum voltage.

The resistors (or pot) do sit across the heater circuit and therefore draw some current, however, which is why the value of resistance must not be too low.

Fixing the reference a certain number of volts above ground does have value in preventing heater-cathode breakdown in circuits where cathodes are sitting at many volts above ground. Most tubes cannot tolerate, for long, a large differential between the heater and cathode voltages. But it's no good to "bias" the supply as a knee-jerk reaction; it really gives no benefit in circuits where the cathodes are only a couple of volts above ground, and could actually do harm by pushing conditions closer (in the other direction) to heater-cathode breakdown. If you look at tube datasheets, you'll often see both a positive and a negative rating for maximum heater-cathode voltage.

[Just before hitting "Submit"]: Man, I could probably edit all that verbiage down to two paragraphs, but it's late, I'm tired, and I'd better hit the sack...
 
NYD, as I understand it the bias can sometimes be helpful when the cathode-heater system acts like a little vacuum diode of its own, particularly when there is contamination, some cathode coating that has found its way to the heater during fabrication. Then, if the cathode is not at a particularly low impedance, the zero bias (or more properly periodically shifting bias for an a.c. filament) leads to a lower impedance between filament and cathode and hence greater induced hum/noise. The positive bias of the filament relative to the cathode repels the electrons and reduces the coupling.

This is very briefly discussed somewhere in Langford-Smith 4th ed.

EDIT: Also discovered a description in Cherry and Hooper, Amplifying Devices and Low-Pass Amplifier Design, a really great book btw.
 
Most informative. After I asked this question I found that I have a huge hum problem in a Laney to Marshall conversion that I am currently undertaking. Time to try a hum ballance circuit. Thanks Dave :thumb:
 
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