AMS Neve 1073 Sweeps

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3nity said:
Seriously to me the EZ1073 sample sounds better to my ears.

They sound Identical to my cheap focusrite interface pre's witch in that case makes these a $4000 paperweight.

That's how much I've spent on these so far. Not to mention time.

I can post samples of that as well if you like. I doubt anyone will be able to tell even the slightest difference.
 
Ok,

Here's a comparison between my cheapo focusrite saffire preamp and the EZ1073 with AMS TX

http://soundcloud.com/aaronrash/ez1073-vs-focusrite-saffire
 
Here is also some Mix pass samples.

One is straight from Cubase and the other is passed through the EZ1073

https://soundcloud.com/aaronrash/bounce-from-cubase

https://soundcloud.com/aaronrash/bounce-through-ez1073
 
I hear a difference.  It's subtle.  There are more mids in the EZ1073 version, and more aggressive low end.  Not more low end itself, just a sense of aggressiveness in it.  It sounds alive and a little less glued.  The bounce sounds glued and more cohesive.  Etc.  It's subtle but there are differences... 

I'm not sure what you're complaining about really.  If you want a specific color or affected sound -- by definition something that would be something that alters the original audio -- then you are looking at a processor by definition, not a clean pre and line amp.  I'm sure the Neve co. were trying to make their designs and products as clean and transparent as possible at the time, and not a processor. 

I've worked on Neve boards -- they all sound different.  Even among the same models.  Who knows why.  Beyond all the talk of caps and transformers and terminations… we won't ever know 100%.  It's a little art, besides the understood science.  Rupert has talked a lot about using ears and not graphs and test gear.  In that sense I think your search for sweeps is not going to answer your apparent anguish.

EVERYTHING changes or effects or plays a minor role in audio, even wire, more or less depending on context.  I think to settle this discussion you need to sit down with an AMS or original Neve and your EZ1073 and run tests with A/B comparisons.  Closely inspect terminations, not just output transformer terminations but everything on the secondary of all THREE transformers.  Look at everything and compare every component.  Listen.  Test with your ears and do some blind listening tests.  You may be surprised what you find out.

I haven't build my EZ1073 yet, but if it sounds like yours I won't be complaining.  Really.  It works.  It's quiet, it does its job.  If you want a processor to color your sound then you may want to deliberately build it differently next time, deliberately mess with the circuit.  Just my 2 cents, please don't get angry or aggressive.  :)
 
tommypiper said:
I hear a difference.  It's subtle.  There are more mids in the EZ1073 version, and more aggressive low end.  Not more low end itself, just a sense of aggressiveness in it.  It sounds alive and a little less glued.  The bounce sounds glued and more cohesive.  Etc.  It's subtle but there are differences... 

I'm not sure what you're complaining about really.  If you want a specific color or affected sound -- by definition something that would be something that alters the original audio -- then you are looking at a processor by definition, not a clean pre and line amp.  I'm sure the Neve co. were trying to make their designs and products as clean and transparent as possible at the time, and not a processor. 

I've worked on Neve boards -- they all sound different.  Even among the same models.  Who knows why.  Beyond all the talk of caps and transformers and terminations… we won't ever know 100%.  It's a little art, besides the understood science.  Rupert has talked a lot about using ears and not graphs and test gear.  In that sense I think your search for sweeps is not going to answer your apparent anguish.

EVERYTHING changes or effects or plays a minor role in audio, even wire, more or less depending on context.  I think to settle this discussion you need to sit down with an AMS or original Neve and your EZ1073 and run tests with A/B comparisons.  Closely inspect terminations, not just output transformer terminations but everything on the secondary of all THREE transformers.  Look at everything and compare every component.  Listen.  Test with your ears and do some blind listening tests.  You may be surprised what you find out.

I haven't build my EZ1073 yet, but if it sounds like yours I won't be complaining.  Really.  It works.  It's quiet, it does its job.  If you want a processor to color your sound then you may want to deliberately build it differently next time, deliberately mess with the circuit.  Just my 2 cents, please don't get angry or aggressive.  :)

Hi Tommy,

No need for me to get angry or aggressive buddy...

Here's my problem though. I've owned AMS 1073's and 1084's for over 5 years and had to sell them due to my studio closing.

Now I work from home on my own personal music and I thought the EZ1073's would be a perfect way to get the sound I'm so used to back.

My AMS units were anything but transparent. In fact the 10XX series preamps are some of the most colored preamps ever made in my opinion and this is why they are so sought after because theres something magic they ADD to the signal.

They really bark back at you when you lean into them. They thicken up the signal quite a bit and it's not something that's subtle, by any means.

My very experienced Neve tech agrees, and after long months of email's I'm having to send my unit to Canada for testing. We've already compared the EZ1073 to the AMS units and Vintage units, and I'm telling you something is off. Something is missing.

The EZ1073's sound great, they really do, and if I have never used a real Neve I wouldn't be complaining but that's not the case.

Believe me I want to brag about these as much as possible, I built them with my own hands and got my last name silk-screened on the front

My EZ's are very clean and clear, but so are the AMS but they add a unmistakable sheen on the top end it sounds like sugar to me. Ruperts "Sweet" sound... Not to mention the midrange bite. That's the mojo that I'm missing so bad.

If I want transparent I have GML pre's for that. And as much as most people wouldn't believe this. my GML 8304's sound more agressive and punchy than my EZ builds. Somethings wrong.

Anyways, I am complaining because the sound I'm so used to isn't there, and when you spend ton's of money on high end components and transformers from AMS, it's extremely disappointing to not hear my unit eat my focusrite $20 preamp for breakfast.

Cheers

Aaron

 

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Aaronrash said:
Ok here's the comparison file for all those that are interested.

First in the file is the AMS 1073, followed by the EZ1073

All the bright/silky mid-high range in the AMS is not coming through in the EZ.

Again these are using the EXACT same transformers

We think it might have something to do with capacitance of the traces on the PCB, but there is no way to find out.

The B-0 ground plane on the EZ is so massive it takes forever for it to take solder, even set to 850F

I personally think this must be affecting the sound in some way.

Here's the file: https://soundcloud.com/aaronrash/ams-vs-custom

Can other EZ1073 owners tell my your experiences? Has anyone else done a proper shootout with their EZ's against a real AMS?

I'm not blaming Colin, he makes nice products and has allot of happy customers. But I went into this thinking they would sound dead on accurate. Perhaps allot of EZ1073 owners have never used a AMS unit and are therefore happy with their builds

Now we have a problem, that's a huge difference. I prefer the AMS sound!
Little bit aggressive  on high mid (in a good way), and that's what I like on neve.

Are EZ use the same capacitor and transistor as the AMS have?
 
We can pontificate forever. The difference is sound is so obvious it must be measurable. What we need is some comparative measurements.

Cheers

Ian
 
Yep, same caps same everything. Really went out of my way big time to get everything correct.

I prefer the sound of the AMS Neve as well. There's a bite it has that will saw straight through a dense mix and put a vocal right smack in your face.

By the way, the WAV's are much more noticeable than the crappy soundcloud compression/encoding

When I first got my EZ1073's I noticed this immediately when I found myself EQing my vocal to try to get it to cut through, till I was at the point I was boosting 15db of air and by that point it was pure sibilance. I knew at that point something was seriously wrong.

Using my 1084's as my main vocal chain for several years, same mic same everything, I noticed the sound was way off.

What I'm gonna end up doing is shipping the unit to my tech in Canada and hopefully he can get it figured out. They have a AP as well as a bunch of vintage 10XX modules to compare to.

At this point i'm out of options and have tried everything I can try on my end.

I'll report back after I get something figured out. Might be useful for future builders

But in the end it may turn out that layout differences the absence of Canford FST wire, thick PCB traces and a B-0 on a wire instead of a massive B-0 plane on the board could be the reason they sound so far apart.

But I hope this isn't the case! I can only afford 1 AMS unit if I sell these.

Aaron

 
what is the little spike in the high end of your units
interferences from me having the unit out of the box to be able to switch Tx quickly for the sweeps comparison.

I noticed the sound was way off
I found a comparison of ams/bae units audio files showing the same differences soundwise that you have comparing the ez/ams: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-shoot-outs-sound-file-comparisons-audio-tests/171713-neve-1073-vs-bae-1073-samples.html

After hearing your ez-ams comparison sample, I immediately recognized the file A as being the ams on the topic mentioned above due to the pristine hi end/less low end. I agree with the "processed/sound like a record" term.

So it appears that there was nothing wrong with your ams unit and they are supposed to sound that way ("processed").
But they're definitely laking low end when compared to ez or bae (even-though bae units share the same layout). Some say that the bae units are more faithful to vintage units due to that low end. Are vintage units supposed to sound "processed" ?

Maybe ams unit is based on another version than the cloner ones....IIRC there were 24 versions/updates of the 1073 unit....
Did you have the chance to crosscheck the values inside your ams unit ?

And like Ian said, differences in sound  that obvious  should be measurable...do you have a rew plot of your ex ams 1073/1084  unit ? if not, could your friend do some ?
 
Could it be that the neve schematics are not accurate to avoid cloning?
Im saying this because i once found a wiring mistake on a certain unit schematic from Neve.

The unit didnt work properly untill that connection was defeated...

Who knows.
 
it is either the input xfmr, the circuit board, or the output xfmr,

or all 3.

so you swap these components one at a time to see if they make any difference,

 
Nope I didn't. I wish I had access to another AMS unit right now. I have personally compared the Vintage units to the AMS units and they sound identical to each other. Clients would request vintage 1073s in sessions or producers would bring them in. The AMS sounded exactly the same.

Geoff has stated in several threads he believes the AMS are spot on recreations sound wise. BAE has better construction methods though. Robin Porter also likes to make it clear in all his videos that they are built to the exact same spec that "Neve and only neve know".

They seperate themself from cloners in every way possible. Even like their transformers painted green instead of blue.

Not only appearance wise are they different but they most certainly sound different.

By the way they never sounded like they were taking low end out. Things just got allot tighter and punchier.
 
CJ said:
it is either the input xfmr, the circuit board, or the output xfmr,

or all 3.

so you swap these components one at a time to see if they make any difference,

I already have their output TX installed. It didn't change the sound much so at this point I'm scare to spend $200 on a mic input TX and have it not change the sound at all
 
So I take it that in all your testing you are doing double blind testing? Or are you just coming in on a Tuesday and deciding 'this one sounds better'.
Have you done a null test on the two files? Take one file, reverse its phase, and align the two files in time and level, and mix them. The resultant file will contain the difference between the two pre's.

But honestly, don't obsess about the gear so much. Many great records have been made on crap gear.
When I started recording, people didn't use boutique preamps, they recorded with what they had.

You will get much further by improving the quality of the artists you record, and the quality of their songs. That's the key.
No-one ever bought a record because it was recorded on a Neve instead of a Soundcraft.
 
Here's a good read regarding the high end of the AMS. This is a good thread to check out. It also talks about how bright the vintage units are as well.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/6794062-post30.html

I mean... Go listen to some old Fleetwood Mac. The sound is there in spades. Especially nicks vocal on Rihannon. Super bright and sweet. That's the good old 8028 with 1080s I believe
 
Aaronrash said:
I already have their output TX installed. It didn't change the sound much so at this point I'm scare to spend $200 in a mic input TX and have it not change the sound at all
Don't bother...Unlike the output Tx, ams says their input Tx are the same as the stock carnhill..but in green color...

"When AMS neve began re-starting the manufacture of the original Neve 1073 classic module back in 2003, Neve's senior design engineer evaluated the VT22671 which Carnhill were producing and concluded that this was as close to the original as it could possibly be. This is the transformer supplied to AMS-Neve exclusively in the Green can and to the rest of the world in the Blue can."

http://ams-neve.com/news-and-events/getting-wound-about-neve-transformers

I'm quite surprised regarding the ams TF12000 output TX not changing  the sound or little. The unacceptable low frequency distortion level of the stock carnhill 1166 stated by ams (4% @ 20Hz) could have explained the difference in tone of your ez vs the ams unit.

Well maybe tony belmont is right, maybe 1166 Tx ams sells are the same than carnhill stock or at least since carnhill modified it in 2004 with ams support and its marketing BS :
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/329554-neve-transformers.html
even Geoff  said that ams told non sense about the1166 output TX
http://web.archive.org/web/20110315072240/http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/585506-1073-neve-electronics-vs-ams-neve-3.html

I'm still interested to see if the difference between stock and ams output TX is that subtle... could you do samples with both TX ?
 
Yeah I figured the same thing and my tech advised me not to buy the input TX

I honestly thought the AMS TF12000 would sound much different as well, especially since the EZ1073 ships with the PCB mount version that Avedis rejected for his MA5. He probably knows more about the LO1166 than anybody else alive today including Geoff... So that says something.

I think something is being masked to the point I can't hear changes like changing the output TX, different caps etc...

Like there is too much capacitance somewhere or something
 
is that with the cap on the output?

see if you can zoom in on the ringing when you get synced up,

here is a Marinair T-1452 shot zoomed in on the ring>

 

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