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TimG

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Hans Thali Reference Book?

A different title than this. I am a librarian and was asked about a multi volume book by Thali that had schematics for basic Siemens and Neuman gear.
He was looking for it in German and was able to show me a “sold” copy.
maybe 6 volumes?

ring any bells?

Technical Dictionary of the Terms used in electrical engineering, radio, television, Electrical Communication including the Most Used Terms of acoustics, illumination, mathematics, materials, mechanics, optics, Heating Etc., Volume 1 : English - German- F​

Hans Thali

Published by H.Thali, Lucerne, 1946
 

TimG

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It is a similar but different volumes of schematics!

Original Request:

"Anybody has this books (preferably in PDF) ?! even paper format but to be in EU as the transport can be a big thing.
more infor regardin this:
In Switzerland the publisher Thali released the "Thali Schemasammlung" schematics of the available models on the national market. Because the manufacturers kept technical information confidential, the publisher bought every single model, took it apart and documented it (according to the still existing enterprise). This may be the reason why the work is known of containing some errors .."

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TimG

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Wow. I did not know something like this existed...
I am a librarian on a quest and will keep the group apprised! But the above is all I know so far.
Worldcat doesn't show an entity by name.

But now that I know the German word for "schematics" these titles might also be interesting.

Schemasammlung für Rechtsreferendare. 2, FGG, ZPO, WG + SchG, ArbR​

Author:Kristian Dorenberg
Publisher:München : Frank, 1970.
Edition/Format:
Print book : German : 2. Aufl
 

gyraf

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Now THAT is a quest that I can relate to..

I ran the question by our national technical library in Lyngby (DTU Bibliotek) and came up empty handed - however, they supposedly have BIG stashes of yet-unindexed stuff, but you need to know the right guy to ask (which I unfortunately don't). I had a local librarian (in the start-80'es when I was very young) that had such a contact - he could access to just about anything through the DTU Lyngby library. They got me the minimoog service manual that originally got me started in electronics..

/Jakob E.
 

Script

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Not sure but I think a "Rechtsreferendar" has to do with law, not electronics. Other books by Dorenberg too seem to deal with law (tax , civil etc).

Another German word for schematic is Schaltung or rather Elektronisch Schaltplan.
 

rock soderstrom

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Not sure but I think a "Rechtsreferendar" has to do with law, not electronics. Other books by Dorenberg too seem to deal with law (tax , civil etc).

Another German word for schematic is Schaltung or rather Elektronisch Schaltplan.
99% agreement. The above link refers to legal topics. It has nothing to do with our stuff.

Script is right, schematic or plural schematics translates into German with Schaltung or better (elektronischer) Schaltplan. 1% point deduction for minor spelling errors. 😁😁👍
 

fragletrollet

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Several books from the 70s, perhaps a little dated but the laws of physics have not change.
-"Grounding and Shielding techniques in Instrumentation" Ralph Morrison
-"Noise reduction Techniques in Electronic Systems" Henry W Ott
-"Low Noise Electronic Design" Motchenbacher and Fitchen
-"Burr Brown Operational Amplifiers Design and Application" Tobey, Graeme, Huelsman

A more popular read a friend gifted me
-"Analog Circuit Design art, science, and personalities." edited by (the real) Jim Williams

A book written by a friend of mine...
-"The Audio expert- Everything you need to know about Audio" Ethan Winer... I helped proofread this before publication

I bought "The Audio Expert" years back, and can recommend it. Ethan has been a great resource on acoustics for me, and I loved how he challenged the Gearslutz/space community on objectivity (truth) in audio engineering. GS sure wasn't ready for it.... :geek:

A few recommendations from my side:

Master Handbook of Acoustics - F. Alton Everest
-All you need to know, and a lot more, on acoustics. Maybe a little out of scope regarding electronics, but important nonetheless.

Sound Reinforcement Handbook - Written for Yamaha by Gary Davis & Ralph Jones
-A very general guide starting with basic physics before giving a total overview over all general important concepts and devices used in audio engineering without delving too deep into any subject. Greatly recommended!

Best,
Magnus
 

Dualflip

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This is a continuation of my previous post, since 20,000 characters is the max allowed per post.

Audio Specific​

  • Small Signal Audio Design, 3rd Edition - Douglas Self. This book needs no introduction, its one of a kind, the 3rd edition has material on tape amps and many of the stuff regarding phono amps was moved to his other book (Electronics for Vinyl). In my opinion, the section on compressors/limiters has always been very superficial, the EQ section also needs more work.
  • Power Amplifier Design Handbook, 6th Edition - Douglas Self. This is among the Top 2 books on PA design. You might not be that interested in Power Amplifiers, however, discrete Opamps are virtually the same as PAs but with a much simpler output stage, so if you are interested in discrete circuitry, DOA, compensation techniques, etc... this book is a must read.
  • Designing Audio Power Amplifiers, 2nd Edition - Bob Cordell. When I said that the previous book was among the Top 2 books on PA design, this is the other one in that list. Amazing book, similar to the above, but rather complementary, Bob Cordell used to work at Bell Labs, he also covers FET amplifiers in depth and seems to like them a lot, whilst Self covers FETs just because he is compelled to include them in his book.
  • Audio Power Amplifiers - Arto Kolinummi. A great book which explores many different schemes to reduce distortion in power amplifiers, not the same as the two books above, it is also more advanced. If I am not mistaken, it is based on the author's PhD thesis, so expect more theory than Cordell or Self.
  • Solid State Guitar Amplifiers - Kyttala. A book which focuses on a niche market, since there are virtually zero books out there on SS guitar amps, but the theory can be applied to amps in general. And, its free: https://www.thatraymond.com/downloads/solidstate_guitar_amplifiers_teemu_kyttala_v1.0.pdf
  • Electronics for Vinyl - Douglas Self. Another book from Self, focused mainly on amplifiers for phono players. Again, that might not be your particular cup of tea, however, the book is a great resource to learn how to design discrete or hybrid electronics focusing on low-noise. Highly recommended.
  • The Design of Active Crossovers, 2nd Edition - Douglas Self. As you can see, this guy writes like a fiend. This book focuses mainly on how to build and design crossover networks using opamps, it is a great book to learn about filters in general, but most of what you'll find are low-pass, hi-pass, etc.. no parametric EQs and such.
  • Self on Audio, 3rd Edition - Douglas Self. This is not a book, but rather a collection of papers or articles in several audio topics by Douglas Self, dating back to the 70s up to more recent times. Great source of information, however, I don't think its for beginners, basically, if you have already read all of Doug's books, then you are ready for this one, otherwise, skip it. Also, many of the stuff in these articles is covered in his other books.
  • Audio Electronics - Hood. This book is ok, good entry level book, the circuits in there are not as hi-fi as the ones in Self's book, and they are also quite dated, but still, it has some valuable information.
  • Electronics for Guitarists - Dailey. I think this book is a good idea poorly delivered. It is more for engineers who play guitar, rather than guitar players who want to learn electronics. However, anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of electronics like basic transistor/opamp amplifiers and such, will find the book shallow and superficial, at the same time, it has enough math and theory to scare the living hell out of a typical guitar player.
  • Handbook for Sound Engineers, 3rd Edition - Ballou (ed.). Its like some sort of compendium or encyclopedia of many topics written by specialists in each area, ranging from acoustics, microphones, preamps, digital audio, etc... each topic is divided into a unique chapter, and of course, it wont go to the depths of each topic. The chapter on audio transformers written by Bill Whitlock is particularly great, but you can get it for free on Jensen's website. I think the last edition is the fifth, but only buy it if you are interested in the latest developments, but for analog, the 3rd edition is more than ok.
  • Audiocyclopedia - Tremaine. This is the precursor to the Handbook for Sound Engineers, however it is much older, it is mostly tube oriented, and many chapters are now obsolete. Still, it is a gem of a book (and quite thick!).
More to come...
 

Bo Deadly

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-"Grounding and Shielding techniques in Instrumentation" Ralph Morrison
I got this book for xmas and I'm just now getting around to reading it. I thought I understood E pretty well but this book is going to get me to another level. Electrons move through conductors with an average velocity of 0.001 in/s. It's the electric (E and D) and magnetic (H and B) fields that are actually transmitting all signals / information / power in circuits.
 

Dualflip

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I got this book for xmas and I'm just now getting around to reading it. I thought I understood E pretty well but this book is going to get me to another level. Electrons move through conductors with an average velocity of 0.001 in/s. It's the electric (E and D) and magnetic (H and B) fields that are actually transmitting all signals / information / power in circuits.
Yes, electrons are just pawns, which is why they are called "charge carriers", the electron itself is irrelevant its the charge that matters which produces the E field, in fact, ions also contribute to the movement of charge, for instance inside a battery. It is the charge inside a circuit that produces the E field and if charge starts moving through the cable, it produces the H field. The power transferred is the integral over time of the cross product of the E x H fields normal to a closed surface, the direction of travel of this power is defined by something called the Poynting vector, that is the real deal behind electricity, Ohm's and Kirchhoff's laws are just our lazy way to skip all over this stuff, that is, unless you reach certain frequencies at which Kirchhoff's laws cease to work as we know them and Maxwell takes the wheel.

The speed of the electrons that you mention is called "drift velocity"

To make things simpler, I am not going to explain the differences between E and D fields or B and H fields, for all practical purposes, it doesn't matter for the explanation I will give, E and D are related by a factor called 'permittivity' and B and H are related by a factor called 'permeability'. So when you see E or D think of Electric Field, and B or H Magnetic Field

The Ampere-Maxwell law teaches us that an H/B field can be produced either by conduction current (i.e. electrons moving in a cable) or by what its called 'displacement current', which happens when you have a D/E field varying with respect to time, and in this latter case, the electrons are not moving from one place to other. This displacement current happens, for instance, between the plates of a capacitor; if you ever wondered how can electricity travel from one plate of the capacitor to the other when there is a gap of insulating material between them, that is how: displacement current, that is also why capacitors block DC, since DC produces a steady D/E field, no displacement current occurs (the field has to be varying) and there is also no conduction current since there is a gap insulating both plates and electrons can't cross (assuming a perfect capacitor), but when you vary the D/E field with respect to time by applying AC instead of DC, you generate displacement current which also generates an H/B field, and that is why capacitors let AC through but not DC. The reverse is also possible, a D/E field can be caused either by an electric charge like an electron (Gauss' law for Electric Fields), but can also be produced by a changing B/H field (Faraday's induction law).

If you mess around with these equations, you end up with Electromagnetic waves which can travel through space, and in these, conduction currents and charges are not present (I am specifically talking about Radio waves travelling in the air or in space), its just a feedback of a changing magnetic field which in turn produces a changing electric field which in turn produces a changing magnetic field, which in turn... you get the idea. BTW, this is how light works as well, it has an electric and magnetic field, but frequency is much higher. That is why when we say that electricity travels at the speed of light, we are talking about the electromagnetic wave or the E and B fields, or the energy, not the electrons moving in the cable. There is a corollary here, electrons can move at the speed of light, but remember that electric current is not only one electron, but a group of electrons, and this group of electrons moves very slowly from place to place, even if them, individually, can move at the speed of light.


Then, one of the biggest realizations that you can make, is to become aware that Inductance is just a unit that relates current and magnetic flux, capacitance is a unit that relates electric charge and voltage, and resistance is a unit which serves to quantify the loss of electric energy into heat. It is then that you realize that inductance, capacitance and resistance, do not exist by themselves, but are fabrications for us to handle in terms of voltage and current a bigger reality which is comprised of Electric and Magnetic fields, in other words "there is no spoon".

Another interesting thing, we have always thought that voltage is voltage is voltage, and whilst the end result is probably the same, the source is not the same. Its not the same field which produces a voltage in a battery, or in an inductor. In a battery, the E field is the cause for the voltage produced in the battery, same thing with a capacitor, but in an inductor, it is the changing B field through the inductor which produces the voltage (Lenz Law), in a generator, again, its the changing magnetic field responsible of producing the voltage. And more over, the electric field produced by a charge is not the same as the one produced by a changing magnetic field! an E field produced by a charge produces an E field which points outwards from the charge or inside towards the charge, depending on whether the charge is positive or negative, but an electric field produced by a changing magnetic field, produces a whole different monster, an E field which 'revolves' in itself, with no beginning or end, very similar to a magnetic loop.


Here is a brief (simplified, since I wont use vector calculus) example to show you how everything comes from the electric and magnetic fields:

The relationship between the current in a cable (I) and the electric field (E) is:

I *rho/A= E (Current*resistivity of the conductor / cross-sectional Area of the conductor = Electric field)

if we multiple both sides by the length of the conductor (d)

I*rho*d/A = E*d

but what do you know, E*d is Voltage (V)

So we get

I*rho*d/A = V

lets group the terms rho*d/A into a single term called 'R' which shall be called resistance, so:

I*R = V , looks familiar?

/////////////////

Another one for you, a bit harder:

Electric charge and the Electric Field are related by the following equation:

Q = ε*A*E (Charge = permittivity*Surface Area*Electric Field)

lets multiply both sides by the distance (d)

Q*d = ε*A*E*d

But we already know that E*d = Voltage, so:

Q*d = ε*A*V

lets divide both sides by 'd'

Q = ε*A*V/d

now, lets group the terms ε*A/d into a single term 'C' which shall be called capacitance.

Q = C*V

Differentiating the equation we get

dQ/dt = C*dV/dt

but Electric current (I) is defined as:

I = dQ/dt (Current = dQ/dt)

so

I = C*dV/dt

You can see, everything can be traced to the E field, but lets go further, applying a Fourier transform we get:

I = jω*C*V

Dividing both sides by I*jω*C:

V/I = 1/(jω*C)

But we know that Voltage over Current is Impedance, so

Z = 1/(jω*C)

Taking the magnitude or absolute value, and since ω = 2*pi*f, where 'f' is the frequency in Hertz

|Z| = X = 1/(2*pi*f*C) (looks familiar? its the reactance (X) of a capacitor)


With the inductor its a very similar procedure but starting from the B field rather than the E field.


The point I am trying to make, is that all the equations we use in circuits can be traced to the Electric and Magnetic fields. Impedance, Inductance, Resistance, Capacitance are all illusions, even Voltage and Current are not real entities, since they are derived units from the electric or magnetic fields, you could argue that what we call current is a real thing because electrons are moving, but what about displacement current in which no electrons are moving? in either case, the term 'current' describes something, like electrons moving, but it is not a thing or entity by itself, all that matters are the electric and magnetic fields, those two are the fundamental things in nature making all our gadgets work.

And if you want to go deeper into the rabbit hole, we can ask ourselves what is an electric field? its defined as force per unit charge, so in the end, we could say that it all boils down to forces of nature, but why does something like an electric charge produces forces? why does electric charge exists in nature? there is a Nobel Prize waiting for you if you answer that....

The truth is that even with all these fancy theories and math, our smartphones and TikTok, we are still as clueless as we were 10,000 years ago as to why things are the way they are....
 
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Bo Deadly

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-"Grounding and Shielding techniques in Instrumentation" Ralph Morrison
There are numerous bad references to figures in this book (sixth edition). It seems like there are entire sections where the numbers are all off by one or two one way or another. Does anyone know if this book has some page with an errata? The wiley page does not seem to have any sort of errata.
 
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JohnRoberts

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There are numerous bad references to figures in this book. It seems like there are entire sections where the numbers are all off but one or two one way or another. Does anyone know if this book has some page with an errata? The wiley page does not seem to have any sort of errata.
I have a pretty early version of this book c.1977 there are probably later editions.

JR
 

swpaskett

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Fascinating post @Dualflip (#52). I have been encountering this line of thinking lately. It certainly was not taught in engineering school back in the 70s, yet I suspect it has been around much longer. It explains a lot of things. Thank you for taking the time to write that up.
 

Dualflip

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Fascinating post @Dualflip (#52). I have been encountering this line of thinking lately. It certainly was not taught in engineering school back in the 70s, yet I suspect it has been around much longer. It explains a lot of things. Thank you for taking the time to write that up.
You're welcome! When I first started learning EM Theory, I felt it was somehow divorced from circuit theory, I mean, I knew EM was the base of the whole thing, but I didn't know how things fit together. I wouldn't presume to know everything about EM theory, but I have developed a better understanding, I went into RF/MW circuitry design and in that area, EM is king. However, it still scares the hell out of me every time I open my copy of "Advanced Engineering Electromagnetics" by Balanis.

Cheers!
 

GussyLoveridge

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Has anyone encountered this book? I'm looking for more information on testing circuits and components and looking for some feedback.

Audio Tests & Measurements: How to Test Electronic Components, Audiophile & Guitar Amplifiers and Loudspeakers Using Modern and Vintage Test Instruments - Igor S. Popovich​

 

JohnRoberts

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Has anyone encountered this book? I'm looking for more information on testing circuits and components and looking for some feedback.

Audio Tests & Measurements: How to Test Electronic Components, Audiophile & Guitar Amplifiers and Loudspeakers Using Modern and Vintage Test Instruments - Igor S. Popovich​

Sorry no, never heard of that one. Tittle seems a little overloaded with buzz words.

I did write (co-author) one book about testing audio gear but that was a free handout included with our TS-1 audio test sets (back in the 80s).

JR
 

ccaudle

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one book about testing audio gear but that was a free handout

Along those lines Audio Precision has some really good application notes. The late Julian Dunn wrote a good app note called Measurement Techniques for Digital Audio that you could get with a zip file full of macros for running on an Audio Precision test set. I could never justify buying an AP set, but the app note is still good even without their hardware.
 

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