API 2500

[abechap024]

Love the sound of this comp. Anyone keen to a schematic they wouldn't mind sharing?
Thanks!
AC

 

[Tubemooley]

This is a current product at API. They won't release this schematic. I don't know if anyone outside of API has it. DW.

 

[cheApy]

only way out is to find someone whoget one and let u watch inside but... not easy.. good luck

 

[abechap024]

yes I would love to take a peek in one...any chances of someone havinging one willing to crack one open and take pictures  :-[. I think the chances are slim...
AC

 

[ruairioflaherty]

- The 2500 is current production so cloning is not cool.
- I found pictures using a thing called the Google machine - first hit - http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/geekslutz-forum/35675d1179796218-gutz-dsc_0005.jpg
- One of these units is on my radar for mastering and despite not having used one yet they strike me as remarkably good value, no idea why anyone would bother attempting to clone one.

 

[abechap024]

Thanks for the picture. I'm sure they are remarkably good value. I would be one of the first in line to buy one but unforgivably I don't have that kind of scratch, and don't plan on having that kind of scratch for another couple of years at least. I would enjoy looking at the circuit, for a number or reasons, first to learn to see how they implemented the VCA design and second because I like to build audio equipment, and see how other, smarter people build audio equipment. I would not be building to sell, I would be building one for myself. Though I'm sure there is nothing quite amazingly revolutionary about the circuit, I do like their sound. And I'm sure there are more than a few things to learn about the design. Though I realize there must be a need for a certain respect for audio circuits whose counterparts are still in production, I don't think it should stifle the learning that can be gained from analyzing their circuits.
AC

 

[mulletchuck]

what's with all the IC's in that thing?

 

[AK79]

the top board with all the ICs handles the metering and frontpanel switching-stuff.

theres also a battery-holder - battery backs up the panel settings when the unit is switched off

 

[abbey road d enfer]

what's with all the IC's in that thing?

Don't fret.
The IC's, filmcaps and metal-film resistors are only in the side-chain.
The main path uses only bona fide germanium transistors, oil-paper caps and carbon comp resistors, all point-to-point. The PSU even boasts a selenium rectifier (option for mercury).  ;D

 

[Harpo]

what's with all the IC's in that thing?

This is the billboard-top-100 song generator.
Put a grand on top to get the top-10 generator with online vibe-access rythm prediction, input resistors with repainted colour code rings in red for 2nd or orange for 3rd improved harmonics reflection, so you could keep the C4 laqueur out, .... For whatever reason the generator doesn't work that brilliant when fed with male arabian shanty choirs or secular polka-punk in A-minor, but they're working on it.
;D

 

[boji]

Pass the bowl Harpo!

 

[mulletchuck]

- The 2500 is current production so cloning is not cool.

What about the UREI 1176 that is in production?    Huh?  What about mnats 1176 then?  Should we not build that? 
What about the Neve 1084 you can buy?  What about that thread about a DIY 1084EQ that they're gonna sell PCBs for?  huh?  Should we not build that? 



either it's all fair game, or none of it is, in my opinion.   


Bring on the Manley Labs schematics and Avalon Schematics. 

 

[emrr]

What about the UREI 1176 that is in production?    Huh?   What about mnats 1176 then?   Should we not build that?   
What about the Neve 1084 you can buy?  either it's all fair game, or none of it is, in my opinion. 

Black and white guy, are you?

Those are all legacy products that were abandoned, and then revived by new owners many years later. 

The question is who wants to end up in court over some current production cloning.  You?  Go for it.  The cloning of the Distressor was mostly done, and then smacked down and withdrawn. 

You can buy any Manley product you want, and they'll give you the schematic with proof of registered purchase. 

 

[mulletchuck]

The question is who wants to end up in court over some current production cloning. 

So, it's legal to sell the cloned PCB's and instructions for building, but not legal to sell assembled kits that are clones?  what about the GoldenAge Pre73?  SE Electronics Dapro CR1-4?    Sounds like quite a double standard if you ask me.    And isn't the whole reason of DIY because you're not trying to create productions?  just individual units for your own use?

You can buy any Manley product you want, and they'll give you the schematic with proof of registered purchase. 

Since there are several members of this site who run very high-end studios with this gear, isn't it in the best interest of this DIY community for them to donate those schematics to the groupDIY email account?      Seems to be lots of holes in the armor...

 

[emrr]

So, it's legal to sell the cloned PCB's and instructions for building, but not legal to sell assembled kits that are clones?  

 
That's not what I said at all.  There are plenty of people out there selling finished versions of the various kits found here.  They are on ebay all the time.  Many people here get very upset about that. 

 

And isn't the whole reason of DIY because you're not trying to create productions?   just individual units for your own use?

I think the reason of DIY is to make something that one can't otherwise buy, be that because of scarcity or because it never existed.  You know, design something with the knowledge you have, and hopefully learn some more, rather than build Lego (TM) kits.  It seems to have morphed into 'afford' mostly at this site, which is in of itself usually incorrect. 

No one is going to challenge you on repro circuit boards for previously abandoned technology, though I think Quad Eight might.  Generally the issue there is one of branding.  They new owners got on me for reproducing the logo on some re-racking work of real vintage Quad Eight preamps.    SSL has never gone after anyone that I know of, I don't know if they technically could, having never studied the facts there.    Part of this discussion has been continued over here:

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=40070.0

You can buy any Manley product you want, and they'll give you the schematic with proof of registered purchase. 

Since there are several members of this site who run very high-end studios with this gear, isn't it in the best interest of this DIY community for them to donate those schematics to the groupDIY email account?      Seems to be lots of holes in the armor...

Holes in the armor of what?  THE MAN?  Here comes the move to the Brewery rant.  ;D  No offense intended; trying to provoke some thought.  Channeling Soundguy here; party on.

Cloning at the expense of the people who developed a product doesn't generate anything, it simply devolves everything.  There are plenty of freely available schematics to build just about any sort of circuit you might want already, given that you know a little bit of something about how electronics actually work. 

It's in the best interest of the owner of any Manley gear to play by their terms; that would be the contract entered in.  My point is that YOU should buy whatever Manley piece you wish to clone, register it, and get the info.  It's that easy.  Then get rid of the piece, if that's what you wish to do, or build more and have 2/4/8/etc for yourself.  You will have at least bought in and thanked Manley for their design work, which may be an ethics point lost on many.  As usual, I think you'll spend an equal or greater amount of time/money/energy cloning the unit that just keeping the real one; no free lunch. 

There's no specific ground breaking technology or ideas present in their equipment, and I would read that as a challenge to know your electronics well enough to understand up front what they are probably doing, or at least design something new and comparable (if comparable is what you really want; is it? do you know?) rather than simply reproducing something that can already be had.  You want a Manley limiter; did you know that many vintage tube limiters are much better, and the info is out there to be had?  You want a Massive Passive; good luck to you trying to build that, even if you have the info.  I'll be buying one, should I ever have the need and the green.  I have neither, though it would be cool to play with.  But wait, there are people who don't like those either.  Does anyone really think there's something both unique and clonable about a Manley preamp? 

There's a whole lot of 'grass is greener' envy that I call BS on, where people want gear they've heard of, but haven't actually heard or used themselves.  I'm not addressing anyone specifically, maybe everyone has heard and used all these things.  I know I haven't. 

As a person with very little available cash flow, I have bought and sold tons of gear so I could try it and see if it interested me, and in some cases reverse engineered pieces for my own elucidation.  It's a lot of work, but it's no harder than working a 1000 piece puzzle with your grandma at Xmas.  I've spent years tracking down obscure antique pieces and then spending probably too much to then acquire them, all while driving a 15 year old car with no AC that's worth about $200.  I've spent thousands of dollars buying old manuals and technical journals for my library.  It's a matter of priorities, and when I hear a certain amount of gimme gimme gimme (TM, Registered name of SST Records/Black Flag ;D) it strikes me as whiney laziness. 

I'm not real inclined to hand out free copies of things that I put large amounts of research time and or money into; it's just not in my interest to do so, nor is it in the interest of anyone who owns a large pile of Manley/Avalon/etc technology.  Especially if the cart tips and they all go out of biz; where do I then get service or parts for my highly desirable DEAD equipment? 

Can you begin to imagine what it would cost me in time and money to freely redistribute all this information I've acquired over the years?  Are you willing to pay me for my time, or do have something of value to trade that I still need?  Or shall I simply fall further into poverty while handing out what people want to get for free, simply because they want it for free?  For me to even begin to break even on info redistribution, I'd need to set up a sales website, and charge something to pay my staff of scanning/photocopying monkeys and customer service people.  You can probably guess that's nothing but a losing proposition on every front.  I have a fairly large web presence related to various vintage gear, and that translates to multiple daily requests for free copies of information, advice, or technical assistance.  The number of people willing to actually pay anything is a rather tiny percentage, and I have to apologize both for not being independently wealthy, nor charity oriented enough, to appease everyone. 

You can lean it the other way, and look at designers such as NewYorkDave who have offered many great free designs here, with minimal terms, and had those terms trampled.  He got sick of opportunist maneuvers around his offerings.  He packed up his stuff and went home, and I can't blame him.  I imagine he thought he'd get some cool circuits back from other designers in return, or at least some reasonable peer dialog, but instead got an IP headache along with a line of people wanting their hands held.  It's our loss. 

The entire "information should be free (and you should help/give it to me)" movement is the modern socialist revolution, and that thought is bolstered by the lengths to which the film, music, and publishing industries are fighting things, albeit quite wrongly for the most part.  Smart powers that be figure out how to appease the masses, so the masses get enough of what they want while holding onto as much control as they can; the film/music/pub powers don't seem to have the brains.  I am much more inclined to get behind socialist movements that are truly need based; no one is starving or getting evicted over schematics, and the pro audio equipment production industry is certainly not making anyone rich at the expense of others.  It's questionable that it's making anyone rich at all. 

Before anyone rants back at my position, please take stock of the number of schematics I've donated here, many of which are my own reverse engineering, and then count the number of unique offerings you've made yourself. 

Here's some extra smilies, in case you think I'm actually pissed off.    ;D ;D

 

[abechap024]

+1, lots of truth in that post.

 

[jensenmann]

thanks, Doug

 

[MHanson]

Excellent post Doug. 

Hat's off to you for your time and presence of mind posting this.

Michael

 

[gyraf]

Nice rant - one of the best in a long time. Thanks!

Jakob E.

 

[QUEEF BAG]

+10