Are DIY projects more truer to the original design than mass produced clones?

[canidoit]

Just curious what is the general consensus when you compare DIY project vs Commercial Clone. I guess there are pros and cons to each one, ie. one relying on the builder and designer and the other being mass produced and cutting costs.

For example, if we were to compare Warm Audio Pultec and some of the DIY Pultec available online (maybe comparable value?), would it be safe to say, if you can build the unit, you are better off DIY as you can ensure better quality build and truer to the original design?

If there are affordable commercial clones out there, which do you think, you are better off buying the clone than DIY?

I built Mnats 1176 D a while ago because I could not afford the clones back then, but now its a more competitive space with more commercial manufacturers doing clones. I still love the build and the whole journey, but as I get older, I would like to avoid building projects I could buy commercially and use that time for other DIY projects or music.

Thank you.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I don't think you'll find a "general consensus", because thare are as many answers as manufacturers and DIY projects.
Manufacturers have different takes on the subject, some are using their purchasing power to get cheap components, some are taking a no-expense spared in order to provide the best product they can.
And it's about the same with DIY projects, some are determined to extract the ultimate ounce of performance when others are willing to offer a reasonable clone to those who can't afford the upper crust.

 

[Whoops]

Like Abbey says, it depends a lot…

Some clone commercial companies like Warm Audio and Behringer (with the present Klark Teknik outfit) will make clones in China with little quality control and as cheap as they can.
Some other clone companies are more into the “boutique” genre and do as best as possible.

As for DIY you can do it as you wish, you can do it on a budget or spare no expense and do it the best way possible but also using high quality components.

I personally fit the last case, so I prefer to build it myself because at least I’m sure that it was properly done, true to the original and with the best parts possible instead of second guessing if a commercial manufacturer did it right or not

 

[pucho812]

I think the bigger question is just because it’s called a “insert model number here” does it mean it is true to the original?
For example the warm 251 which uses relays to switch the polar patterns. Something I wouldn’t want especially in a high impedance path. Far from original there.

 

[StormsofVogue]

There are some really nice commercial options for different gear out right now. The Warm clones definitely cut corners where they can, but they seem to be well reviewed and the components look to be pretty decent.

That said, I just built a RecPro Audio Pultec kit and it's a damn fine piece of art. It also cost $2200 or so. The Warm Pultec only costs $800. Depending on what you're building and the quality you're aiming for, DIY cost is likely to be as much or more than a budget clone.

 

[Khron]

How much of that "quality" is just confirmation bias, though?

 

[ruffrecords]

I think there are two aspects here - design and engineering. Anyone can copy a schematic but the way the thing is actually put together, board layout, lead dress, transformer orientation, screening etc etc, in other words the engineering of the design, is equally important to how well the device will perform.

Cheers

Ian

 

[JohnRoberts]

Clones are a pretty old topic for discussion around here.

To execute an equivalent design using modern technology could probably deliver superior performance for less BOM cost. Modern mass production could reduce prices even more.... BUT customers believe legacy products possess magical properties.

A fool and his money is soon parted... People need to be clear about what they actually want.

JR

 

[k brown]

Clones are a pretty old topic for discussion around here.

To execute an equivalent design using modern technology could probably deliver superior performance for less BOM cost. Modern mass production could reduce prices even more.... BUT customers believe legacy products possess magical properties.

A fool and his money is soon parted... People need to be clear about what they actually want.

JR

And be sure about what they think they're hearing.

 

[pucho812]

Clones are a pretty old topic for discussion around here.

To execute an equivalent design using modern technology could probably deliver superior performance for less BOM cost. Modern mass production could reduce prices even more.... BUT customers believe legacy products possess magical properties.

A fool and his money is soon parted... People need to be clear about what they actually want.

JR

Legacy or dare I say vintage gear has a magical property of making your money disappear

 

[abbey road d enfer]

It's a well documented effect.
Pulling out notes from your wallet releases the pressure on your heart, which gives this famous sense of elation.

 

[Matt Syson]

You can be sue that manufactures of what is now regarded as 'classic' gear (particularly one starting with N' ) did not check that all components were specific values which is why they quote 'typical' specifications and a permissible tolerance. when 10 or 5% tolerance resistors were the norm gain setting, EQ response determining components were specified as 2 or 1% (high stability) whereas the majority of the other parts were cheaper out of necessity. Using 'military grade' parts is also rather suspect because knowing your audio gear will 'survive' a local extreme radiation event is a bit bizarre when the humans (you) probably would not. American made jeeps shipped to Europe about 80 years ago had an estimated 'lifespan' of a couple of weeks so in some respects hardly worth painting them

 

[pucho812]

I read a gear review in tape op where the person doing the review said “the (insert name here) u87 is the closest reproduction model I have experienced” at that point just by a neumann.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

The art of a good designer (or copier) is knowing what components need precision and to which parameter they pertain.
Putting 1% res and cap in a simple CR coupling is unnecessary (unless it is used to determine the -3dB LF response).
OTOH caps and inductors used in resonant circuits must be precision types, since they define the resonant frequency.
Some clone builders care more about secondary parameters, such as the type of core or winding technique, which are indeed part of the sound signature, but accuracy of nominal inductance is still paramount.

 

[JohnRoberts]

The art of a good designer (or copier) is knowing what components need precision and to which parameter they pertain.
Putting 1% res and cap in a simple CR coupling is unnecessary (unless it is used to determine the -3dB LF response).
OTOH caps and inductors used in resonant circuits must be precision types, since they define the resonant frequency.
Some clone builders care more about secondary parameters, such as the type of core or winding technique, which are indeed part of the sound signature, but accuracy of nominal inductance is still paramount.

Indeed that is the work of design engineering, it is a profession after all and the job is to maximize performance while minimizing cost. Customers who do not grasp the subtleties of electronics often draw conclusions from superficial aspects.

Back when I designed my last phono preamp I used gold plated RCA jacks, not because they would affect the sound of anything, but to impress customers.

JR

 

[Electrobumps]

For example I'd rather have a don classics 1073 than the Neve reissue. But your ears will be the answer.

 

[JohnRoberts]

It's a well documented effect.
Pulling out notes from your wallet releases the pressure on your heart, which gives this famous sense of elation.

odd,, pulling notes from my wallet puts pressure on my heart.

JR

 

[Walter66]

In fact, DIY can build Gear that No commercial company ever would do. Most commercial Designs are done on a Budget, with DIY, one can source scarce or NOS parts or simply Design and build the best. In 40 years, I have Not Met Gear that meets completely my want and need list. Since DIY, I can own and use it. That doesnt mean its Always preferable.

 

[JohnRoberts]

In fact, DIY can build Gear that No commercial company ever would do.

Probably true

Most commercial Designs are done on a Budget,

Mainly because shoppers are also on a budget, price matters for most people, unless they are trying to show off by buying the most expensive XYZ.

with DIY, one can source scarce or NOS parts or simply Design and build the best.

define "best". Some modern technology is very difficult to better.

In 40 years, I have Not Met Gear that meets completely my want and need list.

I have

Since DIY, I can own and use it. That doesnt mean its Always preferable.

That is one perspective but there are actually a few variants. The individual DIYer has limited options, small-modest sized companies have more/better options, and big companies have even better options.

I could do things designing at Peavey that I never could as a small company. At Peavey we have tooled up fully custom pot tapers, a luxury afforded when you are shipping thousands of one SKU a month. That is just one example, another is tooling up fully custom knobs, etc.

JR

 

[My3gger]

Tube gear like mics, preamps or compressors by bigger manufacturers is often not made that well compared to solid state products. I have doubts about durability of flat cables for HT and signals, or tubes mounted on horizontal pcb's, output transformers are often cheapest models produced by more or less known companies, inputs too, custom functions aren't offered, very good toggle and rotary switches are not that common, etc.
Ime this type of gear is still worth diy-ing for other reasons like using original transformers or others with great sound, making rare models no one else or modifications/new designs, choice of tubes is much wider, mechanical part and layout can be better. I can still find nice 2U chasis with engraved Alu front plate and PT for less than 130eur, other parts can be bought quite cheap if person doing it has enough experiences.