Biometric legislation

[Tubetec]

Theres been a concerted effort by the current administration here in Ireland to quietly slip in biometrics and various other elements personal data processing on the quiet .Due to Covid many services (both government and private sector)moving online presented a huge oppertunity to gain data about the population .
First it was flawed legislation requiring people in receipt government payments to provide a 'digital picture' ,which they didnt specifically explain was being biometric processed until various civil rights bodies and privacy campaigners shouted loudly enough , and 3.5 million people had already be cajoled into it without being properly informed what was happening with their data .
Over the last year or so new traffic cameras are popping up all over the place on the major roads , stereoscopic units mounted on bridges, overpasses and traffic signage .In just the last week temporary traffic cameras are appearing at many smaller roads and junctions .Theres a sign at the base of the utillity pole naming the company with the contract and stating that the camera is recording data which will be processed later I wouldnt be at all surprised if these units have the abillity to connect via wifi or mobile broadband if required .

In the last month or two we've been presented over the air waves with what almost sounds like a public service anouncement explaining the use of 'Smart Glasses' and how were likely to be filmed or photoed in public , payed for by none other than Meta .
Now the government have finally announced pending new legislation to copper fasten the police forces collection and use of mobile phone and biometric data , something which we know every modern police force on the planet has been doing for many years with or without legal mandate depending on the jurisdiction you live.
Just the other day the Irish policing and judicial system were heavily repremanded in the European courts over how mobile phone data was handled in the Graham Dwyer case ,
Its seems almost certain now this man , who lured a vulnerable woman to a remote location tortured raped and murdered her will walk something like 5 years before his sentence would have otherwise finished . He will now make a claim for damages for millions against the state , step out of jail and jet off over the horizon to his new life .

I know the UK is one of the most heavily cctv covered populations on the planet , as usual the window licker politicians here eventually try and follow suit .

 

[JohnRoberts]

The way technology is going this seems inevitable... the good news is that it should make life difficult for criminals, the bad news is personal privacy will erode. Hey alexa stop listening...

JR

 

[scott2000]

Hey alexa

Play Sea Shanty

 

[shabtek]

this ship started sailing with the proliferation of smart phones

people don't care

 

[cyrano]

Our "IRS" will probably get acces to everyone's phone data soon. We're fighting it, but it seems futile, as the next try will probably be on the EU level.

It won't hinder "criminals" at all, because when it comes to taxation it's far too simple to conduct tax avoidance internationally and hence legally. Too many multinationals don't pay taxes at all and some others just propose how much they're willing to pay. That proposition is accepted in the vast majority of cases, as the local IRS people don't have the means, nor the knowledge to investigate and fight the proposition anyways.

Like shabtek said, people don't seem to care. They do, however like to bicker about how much taxes they pay from their wages.

There is a simple solution: abolish income tax and compensate for that loss of govt income by increasing VAT. Nobody in the political arena seems to want to get behind that. Probably because VAT is not understood at all and the voters like to bicker about that too. In stead, they're goin' on and on about wealth tax, which is even seemingly supported by some millionaires and billionaires.

It sure is a strange world we live in, master Jack...

 

[JohnRoberts]

Our "IRS" will probably get acces to everyone's phone data soon. We're fighting it, but it seems futile, as the next try will probably be on the EU level.

It won't hinder "criminals" at all, because when it comes to taxation it's far too simple to conduct tax avoidance internationally and hence legally. Too many multinationals don't pay taxes at all and some others just propose how much they're willing to pay. That proposition is accepted in the vast majority of cases, as the local IRS people don't have the means, nor the knowledge to investigate and fight the proposition anyways.

Like shabtek said, people don't seem to care. They do, however like to bicker about how much taxes they pay from their wages.

There is a simple solution: abolish income tax and compensate for that loss of govt income by increasing VAT. Nobody in the political arena seems to want to get behind that. Probably because VAT is not understood at all and the voters like to bicker about that too. In stead, they're goin' on and on about wealth tax, which is even seemingly supported by some millionaires and billionaires.

It sure is a strange world we live in, master Jack...

Some of us actually understand VAT (value added tax) a glorified variation on a sales tax (collected at different levels of production when transactions occur).

The concern about a federal sales tax is the liklihood that they would not abandon the income tax, so we would end up with double taxation.

Just like people cheat on income tax they can also cheat on VAT (more in some countries than others) fueling an underground economy.

JR

PS; I care about privacy but I am not a criminal (I hope). It is remarkable how little many people value their personal privacy.

 

[cyrano]

It is very hard to defraud the VAT system, unless you start making fake items outside the VAT system. But that's true for any kind of taxation. Cigarettes and alcohol, fi, are two examples of items that still seem to attract criminals, obviously because taxes are very high.

 

[JohnRoberts]

since I know how angry it makes me when people lecture me about america, I won't do the same to you...

JR

 

[cyrano]

Please, go ahead. You know I'm not a nationalist. And maybe I'll learn something.

 

[JohnRoberts]

On paper a universally applied sales tax seems harder to cheat. The stories I recall reading (admittedly a number of years ago) was about poor southern EU states where an active underground and barter economy rose up to avoid the VAT. I suspect smugglers all pay the VAT and then apply for their refunds from the government . The arguments I recall from back then was that increasing the VAT rate to cover cheating losses just encouraged more people to cheat a vicious cycle. A lower VAT percentage would reduce the amount of cheating and actually increase government receipts (kind of like an EU Laffer curve).

The government (some governments) see merit in blockchain based currency for the visibility into private transactions a public ledger would provide. If the tax collectors can see all your spending they can figure out your income.
===
My real concern is that I don't trust the government. That's why my retirement is in a ROTH IRA so they can't tax me on it again, though some would like to.

JR

 

[cyrano]

That barter economy certainly exists and not only in the south. But, it's not illegal and afaict not significant due to the limited worth of goods bartered compared to 'the rest'. There are (or have been?) several "barter clubs" in Belgium too.

As far as I understand sales tax, as it is used in some states in the USA, the main difference is that sales tax is between the end user and the company selling the goods, while VAT is at every level of manufacturing. That's exactly why it isn't easily industrially exploitable. It would be a little easier if you could sell at a loss, but that's illegal. That doesn't mean there haven't been VAT scams, just as there are alcohol and tobacco tax scams. It isn't a bad system because it can be misused. Most any system can be misused.

VAT is inherently easier to check as it travels with the product through many production cycles and those who make the biggest profit also pay the most VAT.

Think about it, John. Those who lead a luxurious life would pay more tax compared to those who lead a simple life. Not only would it reward saving money by spending less, it would be rewarding keeping a lower ecological footprint. And isn't that what the world needs?

And work wouldn't need to be taxed, so those who work harder don't pay increasing taxes.

BTW, It's a US economist who came up with the plan, but memory fails me. It'll come back, I hope. When I heard about it, years ago, it made a very good impression, but has been mostly ignored everywhere.

You say you don't trust your govt, and neither do I. But I have a certain level of trust in ours. At least a small part of our govt cares about it's citizens. But it's easier to know what politicians are worth in a small country, I guess.

 

[JohnRoberts]

That barter economy certainly exists and not only in the south. But, it's not illegal and afaict not significant due to the limited worth of goods bartered compared to 'the rest'. There are (or have been?) several "barter clubs" in Belgium too.

Barter was just one aspect of VAT avoidance

As far as I understand sales tax, as it is used in some states in the USA, the main difference is that sales tax is between the end user and the company selling the goods, while VAT is at every level of manufacturing.

Businesses can be exempt from paying sales tax for goods they resell but only if they have a sales tax account. I shut down my MS state sales tax account over a year ago when I shut down my drum tuner business. I didn't have a business presence in other states so only had to charge MS sales tax from MS residents.

There is a fair argument for a federal sales tax to replace the tens of state sales tax systems all with different rates, not to mention large city sales taxes (like NYC) etc. Having to manage all the different jurisdictions would be a nightmare.

That's exactly why it isn't easily industrially exploitable. It would be a little easier if you could sell at a loss, but that's illegal.

Hmmm would somebody arrest me because my drum tuner business didn't make huge profits?

That doesn't mean there haven't been VAT scams, just as there are alcohol and tobacco tax scams. It isn't a bad system because it can be misused. Most any system can be misused.

yup

VAT is inherently easier to check as it travels with the product through many production cycles and those who make the biggest profit also pay the most VAT.

Systemic economic "friction". Seems like that would promote vertical integration. Since VAT taxes are paid by the manufacturers the consumers do not see/feel it, while they ultimately pay it in higher prices.

Think about it, John.

nah, I already think too much about taxation.

Those who lead a luxurious life would pay more tax compared to those who lead a simple life. Not only would it reward saving money by spending less, it would be rewarding keeping a lower ecological footprint. And isn't that what the world needs?

Consumption taxes disproportionately tax poor people harder because they spend more of their available money. In some tax jurisdictions food and medicine are exempt from sales taxes.

And work wouldn't need to be taxed, so those who work harder don't pay increasing taxes.

a good thing

BTW, It's a US economist who came up with the plan, but memory fails me. It'll come back, I hope. When I heard about it, years ago, it made a very good impression, but has been mostly ignored everywhere.

A quick search suggests that a french guy is credited with inventing the VAT while it was theorized before that by a german.

You say you don't trust your govt, and neither do I. But I have a certain level of trust in ours.

I don't trust your government either.

At least a small part of our govt cares about it's citizens.

We're from the government and here to help you.

[edit- not to turn this into a partisan rant, sometimes the "cares about citizens" is just posturing to gain voter support. A classic quote from Rahm Emmanuel "never let a crisis go to waste" explains last night's prime time speech from POTUS listing several red meat talking points to stir up his progressive base, this was paired up with campaign fund raising appeals. This is the typical #dosomething knee jerk response we see after similar tragedies.

There are multiple bi-partisan legislative attempts in congress to come up with practical solutions (red flag laws, hardening schools, mental health support, etc) but instead of working with congress like publicly promised, it was just another beach weekend to celebrate the first lady's birthday. If serious about trying to pass legislation you don't demonize the opposition party.This is just politics as usual, trying to raise funds and influence the mid term election just months away. sorry [/edit]

But it's easier to know what politicians are worth in a small country, I guess.

A key principle from our founders was to avoid a powerful federal (central) government. The best government decisions are made locally closer to the people being affected.

JR

 

[AnalogPackrat]

I don't trust your government either.

A good policy, in general.

We're from the government and here to help you.

A key principle from our founders was to avoid a powerful federal (central) government. The best government decisions are made locally closer to the people being affected.

Most of the time the best decisions are made by the people without government involvement at all.

 

[cyrano]

You're all anarchists, really...

 

[PermO]

I've seen the future, it's going to be pretty cool !

 

[JohnRoberts]

I've seen the future, it's going to be pretty cool !

were closer to the next ice age than the last one. The next one should be interesting with modern technology but I expect fossil fuel will be involved.

You're all anarchists, really...

There are real anarchists out there and lots of useful fools.

Government should be kept lean and hungry, so they don't try to bribe us with our own money. Do people still wonder where inflation comes from?

JR

 

[user 37518]

This just happened to my family and I recently, we went to the cellphone company for some thing we needed to get done, and at some point they said something like "Customer signatures are no longer being accepted, now we require you to electronically sign with your fingerprint in order to continue, but don't worry, we won't give it to anyone", yeah right....

I am not afraid of government as much as I am afraid of criminals (even if those two are synonyms):

Back in '07 or so, the government issued a policy that EVERYONE had to submit all their information associated with every single cellphone they had, that included your full address, age, social security number, etc..., otherwise, your line would've been cancelled. The excuse was that they wanted to keep a register of every cellphone line so no one could use a cellphone to scam, kidnap, etc... Long story short, around 2 months after everyone gave their information, the ENTIRE list was leaked to the black market and every single criminal, bank, telemarketing and ad company had access to all your information. And that was back then when smartphones were still not a big thing.

That story is inevitably bound to happen again all over the world at some point, but much, much worse, since back then it was only your info, now its biometrics, they can supplant your identity, etc....

Of course, here in Mexico they are already pushing for the same biometrics law, which was rejected, but that is only temporary....

 

[AnalogPackrat]

You're all anarchists, really...

Hardly. Some of us recognize where the "utopian" nanny state leads and wish to avoid it.

 

[cyrano]

phew... I'm glad I was wrong. Figured I'd have to find another religion

Meanwhile, I realised WHY exactly our IRS wants phone records. They're not really interested in the general population as these people work for a living and have nothing to hide. Also, the big tax avoiders don't do business over the phone.

It's the IRS workers they're interested in. A lot of those help ordinary people with their tax form and that needs to be stopped. Obviously.

What they've overlooked is that alternative communication channels already exist and are being used. One of them, Signal is already illegal in Belgium, but others also don't appear in these phone listings. So soon everyone will be using Whatsapp, Telegram or one of the dozens of other apps to make calls. Whatsapp is already tapped by our govt, but fi Telegram isn't afaict. But then, our police force recently cracked an app that was widely in use by criminals, resulting in the biggest drug bust ever. And anumber of other non-drug related arrests, among which a few politicians, an American involved in large scale kiddie porn and even someone dealing in protected wildlife.

Fragmentation (diversity) is always good, in any eco system.

 

[cyrano]

Hardly. Some of us recognize where the "utopian" nanny state leads and wish to avoid it.

You can only avoid problematic government if you have an alternative.

What's your alternative?

Everyone against the govt won't work. Look at Russia. It just ends in despotism. Every time.