Bock/Soundelux capsules?

[mics]

Should have stopped right there – having a Chinese wife or doing business in China doesn't mean a person understands China or the Chinese. Besides, these kind of generalizations mean nothing; there are many western examples of audio companies copying and taking what isn't theirs.

About Bock, if you look at his new U195, it still uses parts from 797Audio. The list of companies who use 797 or their parts for manufacturing is ridiculously long: Apogee, Bock, Manley, Chandler, Warm etc., all of them profit from the economies of scale available in China. The list of US and Western companies who claim to manufacture locally, but actually have everything done in China is also a very long one. But that's for another discussion

Back on topic, you can't street a microphone for $1'250, give 35-40% margin to a distributor, make a decent profit, and still use a high-end European capsule. It just isn't possible. The maximum manufacturing and assembly budget for a Soundelux U195 is around $400. An MBHO capsule on its own costs more than that.

The only way to do this is if you make the capsule yourself (Neumann, Gefell etc.)

As a manufacturer who does make his own parts, you need to look at costs involved!

Most of the ongoing costs are labour eg; Australian wages $300aud per 8 hour day!  Chinese wages under $200 aud per month of 12 hour days!

My advice to companies that buy all in China and pretend they dont!  Go on a learning curve, spend some money and  improve the industry!

 

[kingkorg]

Applause!  8)

 

[Banzai]

As a manufacturer who does make his own parts, you need to look at costs involved!

Most of the ongoing costs are labour eg; Australian wages $300aud per 8 hour day!  Chinese wages under $200 aud per month of 12 hour days!

My advice to companies that buy all in China and pretend they dont!  Go on a learning curve, spend some money and  improve the industry!

No. The average salary in Shanghai is over $1000 USD.

Same for Beijing.

 

[mics]

No. The average salary in Shanghai is over $1000 USD.

Same for Beijing.

Average favtory worker wage in china is $3.60/hr. This is an all time high but still almost ten times less than wages in Australia on average!

At $3.60 and hour they would need to work a 70 hour week to make a neat grand! 

But if Audio equipment manufacturers decide to learn a new trade or two, buy some machinery and actually make their own stuff, the industry will reak of excellence once more rather than the smell of mediocraty.

 

[cyrano]

But if Audio equipment manufacturers decide to learn a new trade or two, buy some machinery and actually make their own stuff, the industry will reak of excellence once more rather than the smell of mediocraty.

Unfortunately, excellence doesn't sell.

It's what I learned from working in the marketing industry for over ten years. You market to the masses. The masses don't understand excellence. They want mediocrity for a nice price. More monet to be made that way and marketing/publicity is far easier...

 

[Tim Campbell]

There's a lot of good people on this forum and others, working hard, doing terrific work, trying their best to provide quality products. I remember Dale Ulan and I first building capsules here almost 20 years ago simply because at that time it wasn't possible for a normal person to buy a single, good quality capsule at almost any price.

I struggle with the same concerns others have mentioned. Working from Denmark, one of the most expensive countries in europe for doing business, to provide quality while trying to remain competitive isn't always easy. The lure of outsourcing to China in order to lower costs and have more free time is seductive. I'm still a one man company who does every aspect of each capsule I sell whether it's answering emails, machining parts, , testing, tuning or taking out the trash. So far it's still been worth it.

 

[mics]

There's a lot of good people on this forum and others, working hard, doing terrific work, trying their best to provide quality products. I remember Dale Ulan and I first building capsules here almost 20 years ago simply because at that time it wasn't possible for a normal person to buy a single, good quality capsule at almost any price.

I struggle with the same concerns others have mentioned. Working from Denmark, one of the most expensive countries in europe for doing business, to provide quality while trying to remain competitive isn't always easy. The lure of outsourcing to China in order to lower costs and have more free time is seductive. I'm still a one man company who does every aspect of each capsule I sell whether it's answering emails, machining parts, , testing, tuning or taking out the trash. So far it's still been worth it.

I hear you!

It  certainly  is worth it. 

It’s not about the money, I mean sure it is nice to make a living but the satisfaction in making your own bits and pieces is very heartening.

 

[Moby]

Tim, now when you mentioned Dale, our good friend, I remember his  comment on my question regarding China capsules sound .  I did some experiments with the "originals" and their copies but I was always confused because at a first look there is no huge diference in construction, materials... I asked him did he figured out what is the  main diference between those products. And the answer was: "not really sure, but those German capsules are good sounding".  We all know hat Dale can make good sounding capsule and (he is not German ) Well, he just do the best he can. Others just do. That's the point.

 

[Banzai]

Average favtory worker wage in china is $3.60/hr. This is an all time high but still almost ten times less than wages in Australia on average!

At $3.60 and hour they would need to work a 70 hour week to make a neat grand! 

But if Audio equipment manufacturers decide to learn a new trade or two, buy some machinery and actually make their own stuff, the industry will reak of excellence once more rather than the smell of mediocraty.

Chinese have labour laws: max 8hrs day / 48hrs week.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2017/08/16/china-wage-levels-equal-to-or-surpass-parts-of-europe/#2cefd0c43e7f

 

[kingkorg]

Chinese have labour laws: max 8hrs day / 48hrs week.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2017/08/16/china-wage-levels-equal-to-or-surpass-parts-of-europe/#2cefd0c43e7f

I think people should take a look at video ''Santa's workshop " documentary about true conditions in Chinese factories. Not all of them though. Articles like this make sense only after you watch the documentary.


https://youtu.be/yF8jUDzz5bE

In Norway the legal limit is 35.5h/week. I know a ton of people that work 60h+ (a lot of them being asians)  because there are some quite simple workarounds for employers to make this possible. And we are talking about Norway here. Basically it's what's in the contract that matters, not what happens in reality.

 

[Banzai]

Sure, Foxconn is another great example of the abusive side of China. Extremely poor conditions, crazy overtime and a western company constantly pushing down manufacturing price. At all costs.

We've created an imaginary low-cost imperative. Reality is nothing would happen if we couldn't buy 10 t-shirts for €3, and had to pay €20-€30 instead. We really don't need a market flooded with €100 tube mics either...

China's also already reached the point where their own companies are moving abroad to find even cheaper labour; recently saw a documentary about a Chinese shoe manufacturer setting up factories in Ethiopia. It's a neverending cycle.

 

[kingkorg]

What a horror!

 

[Jarno]

Foxconn has already looked at going to Africa but that didn't happen, the infra structure and work ethos is not there yet. Regarding China, it's not just a western company that causes the poor work environment, it's also the government not maintaining rules (or an absence of a set of legal constraints). China is getting there, but it takes time, but they will catch on quickly. And because of the mentality of the Chinese, wages will continue to rise quickly too. And that's ok, it will level the playing field.
And yes, there will be a next low cost manufacturing region/ country, but I do not associate China with poor quality, there are incredibly capable people there, and there is very good focus. Still, "you get what you pay for" remains true, and like with every supplier, you need to manage them.
The ball is also in our court to make sure that we keep up with the developing countries, unfortunately, too often people mistake place of manufacturing with quality. I've seen some pretty shoddy work from our facilities in the US and Mexico when I was at TE.

 

[GeorgeToledo]

What does much of this really have to do with what capsules Bock uses. 

Pretty poor signal to noise ratio on this thread.

I’d guess Alctron as far as the Asian capsules go at this point, but it’s pure speculation on my part.

 

[Banzai]

Pretty poor signal to noise ratio on this thread.

Thanks for making it poorer.
Nothing in Bock or Soundelux has ever come from Alctron.

unfortunately, too often people mistake place of manufacturing with quality. I've seen some pretty shoddy work from our facilities in the US and Mexico when I was at TE.

+1. Some of the worst equipment I've seen was boutique made in USA. There's good and bad everywhere.

This is an interesting article about China moving on to higher value manufacturing: https://thediplomat.com/2017/02/which-asian-country-will-replace-china-as-the-worlds-factory/

 

[GeorgeToledo]

Thanks for making it poorer.
Nothing in Bock or Soundelux has ever come from Alctron.


+1. Some of the worst equipment I've seen was boutique made in USA. There's good and bad everywhere.

This is an interesting article about China moving on to higher value manufacturing: https://thediplomat.com/2017/02/which-asian-country-will-replace-china-as-the-worlds-factory/

Ok, then where are the Asian caps coming from now since apparently you know what you’re talking about.