Cross talk reducing quad wire cable mod in headphones

[PhilipMarlowe]

Has anyone modded their cans from a three wire configuration so the grounds arent bussed for left and right side?
Apparently this significantly reduces cross talk and increases stereo seperation and soundstage and is used with higher priced headphones.
I found a guide for my headphones, the SONY cd900st.
However I'm curious as to how exactly this works on a circuit basis- if the quad cable is combined at the plug, doesn't this make the circuit the same as with a 3 wire cable?
Excuse me if this is basic circuit design.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Has anyone modded their cans from a three wire configuration so the grounds arent bussed for left and right side?
Apparently this significantly reduces cross talk and increases stereo seperation and soundstage and is used with higher priced headphones.
I found a guide for my headphones, the SONY cd900st.
However I'm curious as to how exactly this works on a circuit basis- if the quad cable is combined at the plug, doesn't this make the circuit the same as with a 3 wire cable?
Excuse me if this is basic circuit design.

Wire has resistance so draw it out with one common resistor for both grounds or two different resistors. Ohms law predicts the current flowing in the wire's resistance will cause a voltage drop.

In theory it "could" make a tiny difference, in practice, you tell us.

JR

 

[Tubetec]

What do you think happens to stereo seperation on speakers ?
Some HP amp designers even incorporate a cross talk button ,

Some headphone amps use a 4 pole plug but it seems mainly for the hifi enthusiast . You could probably go to the trouble and prove 4 wire is superiour with measurements .
But will the ears hear a difference or will it be a placebo effect ?

 

[k brown]

I would expect any audible difference would show up (maybe) on binaural recordings; but on others - especially pan-pot constructed mixes, very unlikely.

 

[rock soderstrom]

I'm open to anything better, but I never understood the idea behind this mod. What is the technical basis of the supposed improvement?

bussed

You'll go to groupddiy.com hell for this

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

You could compare between speakers and headphones - but then the amount of natural room reflection generated crosstalk between left and right would far exceed any cable induced crosstalk in headphones. I have had 3 wire and 4 wire headphones and to be honest I can’t tell the difference. I think you’d get more crosstalk from bone conduction at reasonable level. The 3 wire and 4 wire circuits are different in that the ground current for each side is not mixed in the four wire cans and is mixed in the three wire, from the plug - but in the source device the likelihood is that there’s a common around from start to output anyway, so does a short length of cable make any difference? Try it and see - if you have two identical sets of cans you could do an A/B test.
What if the final mix evaluation was done on 3 wire headphones - will you hear the track the way it was intended if you change to 4 wire? Headphones, buds, car speakers, domestic systems and Bluetooth speakers are commonly used in the final stages of mix/mastering by a lot of engineers to ensure the product works for all possible repro devices.
You can listen to hype or listen to music.

 

[Newmarket]

I'm open to anything better, but I never understood the idea behind this mod. What is the technical basis of the supposed improvement?

You'll go to groupddiy.com hell for this

It reduces the common impedance. Whether that makes a useful difference depends on several factors. Eg headphone impedance: cable length. And also bare in mind that it's often regarded as useful to introduce crosstalk to better simulate listening to speakers in free space. Thinking about it wrt headphone dependent effects eg ambisonics might be interesting. Ime it doesn't make a significant difference.

 

[rock soderstrom]

And also bare in mind that it's often regarded as useful to introduce crosstalk to better simulate listening to speakers in free space. Thinking about it wrt headphone dependent effects eg ambisonics might be interesting. Ime it doesn't make a significant difference.

Exactly, which is why I ask myself whether I want an absolute separation of left and right and whether crosstalk is really that bad?

I have built about 10 headphone amplifiers, some of them very elaborate, and I like listening with HPA. I have also experimented with controlled crosstalk, which can really make listening with cans more pleasant. The problem is that there is no universal setting, the whole thing depends on the sound material, sometimes it's great, sometimes the opposite.

 

[sodderboy]

I would not think of doing this for a second regarding speaker level signals.
That said, back in the K140/240 days, in busy basic tracking studios I would replace the factory AKG wire with L4E5-C when a set of cans came for repair. That mod was bulletproof. They would return for a blown driver or something, but never the cable. And I would wire with the common bused. The distributed CUE system was already common bused at the output of the amp, so anything done at the cans was minor.
Mike

 

[PhilipMarlowe]

I would not think of doing this for a second regarding speaker level signals.
That said, back in the K140/240 days, in busy basic tracking studios I would replace the factory AKG wire with L4E5-C when a set of cans came for repair. That mod was bulletproof. They would return for a blown driver or something, but never the cable. And I would wire with the common bused. The distributed CUE system was already common bused at the output of the amp, so anything done at the cans was minor.
Mike

This wouldn't be speaker level but headphone level. If this was a confusing post I apologize but this mod is meant for headphones only!

 

[gyraf]

..the tradition of requiring circuitry absolutely free of crosstalk probably stems from the radio studio "live" tradition, where you wanted to have any number of hot channels heavily overloading, but still be safe if just muted. Was a hard requirement for everything broadcast.

So it's basically a "pro" parameter, perhaps popularized because it's easily measured and spun into a tale for the hifi crow?

/Jakob E.

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

..the tradition of requiring circuitry absolutely free of crosstalk probably stems from the radio studio "live" tradition, where you wanted to have any number of hot channels heavily overloading, but still be safe if just muted. Was a hard requirement for everything broadcast.

So it's basically a "pro" parameter, perhaps popularized because it's easily measured and spun into a tale for the hifi crow?

/Jakob E.

It’s like the speaker cable for $2000/metre maybe - more fiction than fact - you can’t wear two sets of cans at once to compare.

 

[sodderboy]

Cans are speakers in my world. I can just as easily plug a pair of NS-10's into a dist cue xlr as a cue box. Never had to deal with headphone crosstalk. Cue mix, console, bad system wiring, etc. crosstalk yes. Have I used braided wire cables to make bespoke headphones mods for non-abusive situations, yes. But I never heard any crosstalk with 3-wire cans. Studio cans are not for discerning drum distortion on a Sting track whilst enjoying a snifter of porto. They're for drowning out everything besides but what the musician wants to hear. But don't let me soak anyone's dream, just make them durable because anything less is a groove killer, wether it's basic tracks or vocal overdubs.
Mike

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

Easy way to check is fire a signal up one side of a headphone amp, look at the other side with a scope to see how much internal crosstalk there is, then plug in the 3 wire cans and see if there’s any more crosstalk than was originally observed at the headphone amp - first at the headphone amp and then scoping the capsule (both on the no signal side of course). If not a difference between amp output and capsule, don’t bother with 4 wire twisted pair - if there is try the 4 wire and see if the crosstalk is reduced from what the headphone amp produces itself - if there is a reduction then go ahead and put in the 4 wire mod - if you really can hear the difference that is.
I think if there was that much of a discernible difference reputable headphone manufacturers would all be using 4 wire.
I’ve seen declarations about how much crosstalk has come from “X” or”Y” brand cables when no-one bothered to check the crosstalk already present from the source device first before slamming that brand of cable, saying the cable was the cause/source of the crosstalk. The amount you get from a cable is also going to depend on how much level goes down it in the first place - maybe it makes a difference in 250Ω cans?? For the 32Ω or 80Ω studio cans in a recording environment no-one gives a rats about crosstalk - all that concerns the owner is whether the cable breaks off after a short time or if the capsule frames break easily or if they fall off the head (and of course if they sound good and do the job)

 

[pucho812]

In the studio world never gave it a second thought or a thought.
I did rewire every headphone that was broken to get them working again. I also replaced the trs connector with an xlr. This prevented the accidental I took your headphones home. Who wants a headphone with an xlr? Can’t use it outside the studio

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

I recall a boutique studio that had very expensive headphones and theirs were all engraved, had a 5 pin XLR and an RFID tag in the headband. A mic and loose gear check list was signed by the artist and crew on arrival and was checked off before departure - anything missing they didn’t get their tapes until the missing stuff was paid for on top of their bill. One bands roadie (there for the break-down only) had packed all the 57’s and 58’s into their drum traps case thinking they belonged to the band - embarrassment plus.

 

[pucho812]

I recall a boutique studio that had very expensive headphones and theirs were all engraved, had a 5 pin XLR and an RFID tag in the headband. A mic and loose gear check list was signed by the artist and crew on arrival and was checked off before departure - anything missing they didn’t get their tapes until the missing stuff was paid for on top of their bill. One bands roadie (there for the break-down only) had packed all the 57’s and 58’s into their drum traps case thinking they belonged to the band - embarrassment plus.

A place I worked at did the opposite. Rental gear went by the back door, many times it went next to studio gear going between buildings. Lost an m149 that way. The suspicion was it got picked up by a rental company, but no one could confirm that.
I like the rfd tags, keeps stuff from getting stolen. Even in pro audio land stuff gets stolen. I started to label all my mic cables “this cable was stolen from Pucho812”. Amazing how they no longer go missing

 

[gyraf]

label all my mic cables “this cable was stolen from Pucho812”. Amazing how they no longer go missing

..in my world, this value-addition would be reason enough to steal

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

..in my world, this value-addition would be reason enough to steal

Autographed by the famous adds resale value

 

[Whoops]

anyone know a thin and flexible Quad cable that could recommend?

I can get quad cable the same standard thickness of normal 2 conductor mic cable, but I would like to get quad cable thinner than that