Cryo treated tubes ? Myth or reality ?
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I apologize in advance for this long post, but I want to relate a story and I hope not to create a discussion of ABX testing methodology or the like. This is just a personal experience with mic cables (not guitar/bass cables).
This is not about cryogenic tubes, but I did a comprehensive blind listening test to compare microphone cables a few years ago for an audio company that wanted to include a mic cable with their custom microphones. I purchase a few meters of all the usual mic cables from Belden, Canare, Mogami, Gotham, and Gepco, along with a few more esoteric cables from Vovox, Audioquest, Requisite Audio and some random booth at NAMM who claimed to OEM cable for a lot of boutiqe companies. I terminated all 12 or 15 cables with the same Neutrick NC3 connectors. For the test I played a few acoustic guitar recordings of a few bars (continuously looping) into a Tannoy Coax monitor in a large vocal room. I setup an SM57 for one run and a custom active ribbon mic for the second run. The mic stand was secured with sandbags and gaff tape and the mic position was marked in space with plumblines to ensure it didn't move between takes. The mic pre was a Focusrite ISA110 with no processing besides gain.
A 30-second recording of both guitar samples was made with each cable. Then the recording process was repeated, so there were 4 recordings of each mic cable. The samples were numbered by my assistant who didn't know which cable was which number. I did several listening tests myself and I could grade the cables into 3 general groups. The first group was cabling that felt dull both dynamically and frequency-wise. The second was cabling that felt good, and the third group was cabling that seemed to provide more detail in dynamics and frequency content. I could reliably assign the same cables to the same bucket after learning to recognize the difference in sound. I could repeat this experiment day after day, so I trusted that I was actually hearing something that was real. I then had the mic designer and his wife come to my studio and repeat the listening test. Then I did the same test with my assistant and my wife.
All of us could reliably (close to 100% of the time) choose which of the three buckets each mic cable belonged in. Both mics and both guitar examples gave the same results, so we felt comfortable that we were all hearing the same thing. All of the samples sound useable, but I would prefer the cables from the dynamic bucket of cables if I had my choice.
After unveiling the mic cables, we found that three of the four cables that were in the "dynamic" bucket were made from the same OCC solid-core copper cable. The fourth was Gepco X-Band. The middle bucket of cables included all the Belden, Canare, and one Mogami. The "dull" bucket contained one Mogami cable, the Gotham cable, and the store brand from Redco Audio.
The OCC cables are manufactured in Taiwan, using the Ohno Continuous Cast moulding method that creates wire with a unique grain pattern. I'm not knowledgeable about the science, but they mention that the crystals become several meters long, with fewer boundaries between crystals. The process also uses some kind of cryogenic process. There is a lot of info online about OCC and the developer, one Dr. Ohno.
I am reluctant to claim wire sounds different, but I found, along with my collaborators, that cable with OCC solid copper wires did sound better to us than many other cables. The cable, when purchased directly from the factory, is not any more costly than any other well-made cable, on the order of $1 (USD) per foot. Companies that charge hundreds of dollars for mic cables are definitely profiteering, but some of their cables do sound very good.
My only experience with cryo tubes was when I reviewed some mics from Vanguard Audio. The mics sounded very good, but I didn't compare the tubes to non-cryo and I don't really think that would be a main factor in a mic's sound.
This is not about cryogenic tubes, but I did a comprehensive blind listening test to compare microphone cables a few years ago for an audio company that wanted to include a mic cable with their custom microphones. I purchase a few meters of all the usual mic cables from Belden, Canare, Mogami, Gotham, and Gepco, along with a few more esoteric cables from Vovox, Audioquest, Requisite Audio and some random booth at NAMM who claimed to OEM cable for a lot of boutiqe companies. I terminated all 12 or 15 cables with the same Neutrick NC3 connectors. For the test I played a few acoustic guitar recordings of a few bars (continuously looping) into a Tannoy Coax monitor in a large vocal room. I setup an SM57 for one run and a custom active ribbon mic for the second run. The mic stand was secured with sandbags and gaff tape and the mic position was marked in space with plumblines to ensure it didn't move between takes. The mic pre was a Focusrite ISA110 with no processing besides gain.
A 30-second recording of both guitar samples was made with each cable. Then the recording process was repeated, so there were 4 recordings of each mic cable. The samples were numbered by my assistant who didn't know which cable was which number. I did several listening tests myself and I could grade the cables into 3 general groups. The first group was cabling that felt dull both dynamically and frequency-wise. The second was cabling that felt good, and the third group was cabling that seemed to provide more detail in dynamics and frequency content. I could reliably assign the same cables to the same bucket after learning to recognize the difference in sound. I could repeat this experiment day after day, so I trusted that I was actually hearing something that was real. I then had the mic designer and his wife come to my studio and repeat the listening test. Then I did the same test with my assistant and my wife.
All of us could reliably (close to 100% of the time) choose which of the three buckets each mic cable belonged in. Both mics and both guitar examples gave the same results, so we felt comfortable that we were all hearing the same thing. All of the samples sound useable, but I would prefer the cables from the dynamic bucket of cables if I had my choice.
After unveiling the mic cables, we found that three of the four cables that were in the "dynamic" bucket were made from the same OCC solid-core copper cable. The fourth was Gepco X-Band. The middle bucket of cables included all the Belden, Canare, and one Mogami. The "dull" bucket contained one Mogami cable, the Gotham cable, and the store brand from Redco Audio.
The OCC cables are manufactured in Taiwan, using the Ohno Continuous Cast moulding method that creates wire with a unique grain pattern. I'm not knowledgeable about the science, but they mention that the crystals become several meters long, with fewer boundaries between crystals. The process also uses some kind of cryogenic process. There is a lot of info online about OCC and the developer, one Dr. Ohno.
I am reluctant to claim wire sounds different, but I found, along with my collaborators, that cable with OCC solid copper wires did sound better to us than many other cables. The cable, when purchased directly from the factory, is not any more costly than any other well-made cable, on the order of $1 (USD) per foot. Companies that charge hundreds of dollars for mic cables are definitely profiteering, but some of their cables do sound very good.
My only experience with cryo tubes was when I reviewed some mics from Vanguard Audio. The mics sounded very good, but I didn't compare the tubes to non-cryo and I don't really think that would be a main factor in a mic's sound.
soapfoot
Well-known member
Did you safe the recorded files from that test, and would you be willing to share them?
If we’re being greedy, preferably anonymously-labeled with a separate “key” so that we could also hear them blind.
I’d certainly be open to hearing it!
capacitorless
Well-known member
I may be able to find the files - they were made in 2015 or so before a studio relocation, so I would have to get some backup drives out of deep storage. I'll see if it's possible to retrieve the files...
terry setter
Well-known member
- Joined
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As per Lampie519's comment, the variations in capacitance and inductance of the mic cables MIGHT possibly mean that the sound of the cables would be different enough into diffrent preamps that they would end up in a different order of preference. But I, too, would love to hear the test recordings - and a pre/post cryo test of tubes and cables.
I did a few tests on mic cables I have with the LCR meter , the variations between conductor to conductor capacitance and conductor to sheild capacitance can vary quite a lot , even with the same brand of cable ,of same lenght . The amount of difference you end up hearing isnt just related to cable but also how well the circuits mitigate the differences or not .
Cross checking cable interelectrode capacitances might be a good idea if someone repeats these listening tests .
Cross checking cable interelectrode capacitances might be a good idea if someone repeats these listening tests .
I still have all the original cables, plus the ones custom-made for my client. I could test the capacitance from signal-signal and signal to shield on all the cables and reference the measurements against our findings.
We used a SM57 (with transformer) and an active ribbon with a jfet cascode output. The preamp has a transformer input. I wouldn't necessarily expect the same sonic outcome from all the combinations of mic/cable/preamp, but the cable consistently created the same difference for each mic. The cables were all newly constructed from previously unused cable, so they should have been *close* to the manufacturer's specs.
We used a SM57 (with transformer) and an active ribbon with a jfet cascode output. The preamp has a transformer input. I wouldn't necessarily expect the same sonic outcome from all the combinations of mic/cable/preamp, but the cable consistently created the same difference for each mic. The cables were all newly constructed from previously unused cable, so they should have been *close* to the manufacturer's specs.
Don't forget termination (connectors and how they have been soldered). Connectors have an impedance too, so use the same on each. I am not sure if this will be audible, just saying...
I know of cables that WILL make a difference but that is due to the way that they have been treated (here quantum physics come into play, patented
and repeatable and can be proven with the right equipment that normal mortals do not have at their disposal, but if you are working in that field it should be no problem).
Patent:
US20130140059A1
“Convinced myself, I seek not to convince.”
I know of cables that WILL make a difference but that is due to the way that they have been treated (here quantum physics come into play, patented
and repeatable and can be proven with the right equipment that normal mortals do not have at their disposal, but if you are working in that field it should be no problem).
Patent:
US20130140059A1
“Convinced myself, I seek not to convince.”
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Belden is the cable choice for video folks, who don’t give a sod about the soundy-stuff that goes with their visual art. And union a/v folks.
I replace it immediately in studios in favor of Canare and repurpose the cables for distributed cue boxes.
As far as cryo goes, I built a place years ago where everything was cryo’d except for the tubes and me, 99.99% pure silver cryo balanced cables, made bespoke by yours truly, cryo BeCu conns, two patchbays worth.
I would listen to my wiring tunes while finishing and you cannot believe how it made 70’s dub plates sound like total crap. Pure brightness eliminated all that Tubbys love and warmth. Dire Straits and Steely Dan were quite, steely!
As with any install, I was totally sick of it at the end, they wanted to start making the magic, so there was no time to go clinical testing a cello with different cables.
Over 200 twisted, hand-made cables! Almost drove me over the edge. . .
If anyone wants to do their own tests, a mic cable is only $500 for the first foot, $50 each additional up to 12 feet. Additional $300 for cables over 12 feet. Have you ever tried to jam 24 ga wire into 22 ga ptfe? Wearing cotton gloves? It requires psychological and physical therapy after the fact. Minus 20% gdiy bredren discount. Offer good thru April because inflation.
Mike
I replace it immediately in studios in favor of Canare and repurpose the cables for distributed cue boxes.
As far as cryo goes, I built a place years ago where everything was cryo’d except for the tubes and me, 99.99% pure silver cryo balanced cables, made bespoke by yours truly, cryo BeCu conns, two patchbays worth.
I would listen to my wiring tunes while finishing and you cannot believe how it made 70’s dub plates sound like total crap. Pure brightness eliminated all that Tubbys love and warmth. Dire Straits and Steely Dan were quite, steely!
As with any install, I was totally sick of it at the end, they wanted to start making the magic, so there was no time to go clinical testing a cello with different cables.
Over 200 twisted, hand-made cables! Almost drove me over the edge. . .
If anyone wants to do their own tests, a mic cable is only $500 for the first foot, $50 each additional up to 12 feet. Additional $300 for cables over 12 feet. Have you ever tried to jam 24 ga wire into 22 ga ptfe? Wearing cotton gloves? It requires psychological and physical therapy after the fact. Minus 20% gdiy bredren discount. Offer good thru April because inflation.
Mike
radardoug
Well-known member
A fool and his money are soon parted!
One of the reasons I used the Belden was it has a very tough rubber outer jacket , the inner conductors are also rubber coated , its nice and easy to strip and when you solder theres no shrinkage or meltdown like cheap plastic tends to .
The packing materials are also very very resiliant so even though it might not spec out the best its unlikely to deteierate much from normal usage .
They also coil up nice and neatly .
I'll be keeping onto my Belden cables for the forseeable future .
On shorter runs its fine , obviously on very long cable runs closer tollerances could improve matters .
I have been thinking about adding a tiny trimmer cap inside the XLR housing to trim out any capacitive imbalance from either conductor to sheild , it probably wont make much odds at audio frequencies , but in terms of induced RF garbage it might help to some degree , were are in much more hostile environment regarding interference than at any time in the past after all .
The packing materials are also very very resiliant so even though it might not spec out the best its unlikely to deteierate much from normal usage .
They also coil up nice and neatly .
I'll be keeping onto my Belden cables for the forseeable future .
On shorter runs its fine , obviously on very long cable runs closer tollerances could improve matters .
I have been thinking about adding a tiny trimmer cap inside the XLR housing to trim out any capacitive imbalance from either conductor to sheild , it probably wont make much odds at audio frequencies , but in terms of induced RF garbage it might help to some degree , were are in much more hostile environment regarding interference than at any time in the past after all .
What?
I built bespoke diy balanced audio cables from scratch, using cryo treated metal materials. Two patchbays worth, even the patch cables. I have to look deeper to find the iPhone mini cable- such a cutie-tootie. . .
It's a big, cross-patchy world out here, Nick. We'll save some for you!
Mike
Unsheilded? I’ve done this for Dsub cables and AES patch cables, too. Labor intensive! Did you make a jig for even wrap?
Everything is shielded, draining towards the equipment to prevent the bays from being a hellish mess, and I'm not up to BBC standards. I had a special long plank with a ruler and twist-jig, end tension, etc. They listened to a few versions of varied turns per foot, chose what they liked, and I did that throughout.
I did one subsequent mini mastering suite the same way, but it is understandably rarified air territory.
Mike
PS: the "cross-patchy world" bay is a Duality install somewhere else. No cryo!
I did one subsequent mini mastering suite the same way, but it is understandably rarified air territory.
Mike
PS: the "cross-patchy world" bay is a Duality install somewhere else. No cryo!
