Cultural Appropriation

[DaveP]

Recent events like Kardashion's Kimono and Carolina Herrera designs have highlighted the one way traffic on this issue.

Why is it OK for Africans to adopt trousers instead of loin cloths and crave watches on their arm as I witnessed in Africa in the 70's?  Shouldn't they stick to their own culture in order to be authentic?

Look at the G20 photos, only the Arab guy is dressed in his own culture's norm, all the rest have "appropriated" western business suits.

Where did all this come from?..................... anti colonialist revisionism.

So maybe it's time for millenials to take out all those piercings, remove the tattoos and stop wearing earings.  Then when all the white surfers in Cornwall UK have undone their  dreadlocks.  then we can make all our cultures separate again.

In fact the US should not really be speaking English, they should make up their own language not appropriate from us Brits.
On second thoughts maybe they already have.............

DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

In fact the US should not really be speaking English, they should make up their own language not appropriate from us Brits.
On second thoughts maybe they already have.............

DaveP

Well speaking of cultural appropriation English's anglo-saxon roots can be traced back to 5th century germanic tribal migrants. [/humor]

Yes... much of the apparent hypocrisy is laughable, but they take themselves all too seriously to look in the mirror.

JR

 

[Script]

Not just Germanic in English. Also Scandinavian and later French -- what a cultural mess  ;D

 

[JohnRoberts]

Not just Germanic in English. Also Scandinavian and later French -- what a cultural mess  ;D

I studied latin in HS since most romantic languages are based on Latin... 

I can drink in many languages, but would have to settle for vino in ancient Rome.  :

JR

 

[living sounds]

So maybe it's time for millenials to take out all those piercings, remove the tattoos and stop wearing earings. 

The internet tends to give the most extreme subsets of people a highly disproportionate visibility. Most millenials are very likely to consider this as absurd as you do. Best advice is probably to ignore it.

 

[benb]

In fact the US should not really be speaking English, they should make up their own language not appropriate from us Brits.
On second thoughts maybe they already have.............

Noah Webster certainly tried to distance the USA from Great Britain by changing the spelling of some words, notably dropping "u" from words like colour in his dictionary, and the spellings stuck.

As I got on the Internet I learned other differences. I saw someone use +ve and -ve for positive and negative.  Then there's the word fanny, which definitely means something different outside the USA than in it.

Then there are words that have changed over time (this is a different rant, but I think it's related in a generation gap sort of way). To be electrocuted used to mean you're dead, but it's even in some dictionaries now that it also means to be injured but NOT killed by electricity.  Then there's millionare, originally meaning having assets worth a million dollars, but now meaning yearly income of a million dollars. This is traceable to Obama's first years in office when he wanted to raise taxes on "millionaires and billionaires," and the proposed tax applied to those with income over a million dollars.

And while we're at it, white people should stop singing rock 'n' roll music.

 

[Gold]

I love minstrel shows. The way the natives dance is so funny.

 

[cyrano]

I love minstrel shows. The way the natives dance is so funny.

Hehe. LOL.

China has an amusement park that has an Eiffel tower, pyramids and lots of other landmarks from over the world. Not as big as the real ones, but still. Of course, ther's als an "African" village. First they imported some real Africans to jump around in straw skirts. That worked for a short while, until they got sick from being inappropriately dressed for the colder climate. The Africans left.

Then someone found out some Chinese tribe from near the Mongolian border have almost black skin. And they're used to the climate. So now the actors in the African village look more like Mongolians than like Africans.

Who cares? It's only entertainment.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Then there's the word fanny, which definitely means something different outside the USA than in it.

Just one of many words that is less innocent used in the UK, add "knickers" from the same general body region, or "shagging".

It is not only words but simple hand gestures that may be completely innocent here, but carry offensive or insulting meaning in UK and EU... I've had local reps working on the stand at the musik messe tell me what my bored mindless hand movements actually meant to the attendees over there.  :-[ I was an accidental ugly american that time. I've been with large groups of americans eating in a small restaurant in another country, with most of the group completely unaware that everybody else in the place was staring at us for our loud boisterous (probably obnoxious to them) behavior, ruining their date night out or whatever. 

JR

 

[DaveP]

I've been with large groups of americans eating in a small restaurant in another country, with most of the group completely unaware that everybody else in the place was staring at us for our loud boisterous (probably obnoxious to them) behavior, ruining their date night out or whatever. 

I've seen this first hand when playing at a US base in the UK in the 60's, it was like they had all overdosed on testosterone!

DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

I've seen this first hand when playing at a US base in the UK in the 60's, it was like they had all overdosed on testosterone!

DaveP

Many stereotypes have a basis in truth. The ugly american is not an invention to insult us, but a (subjective?) observation made from a different cultural perspective.

Military overseas is another subculture...but trade show booth personnel are not exactly low T.  I recall traveling through Germany on nato maneuvers in 1970. Kind of hard to remain inconspicuous while carrying your M16 inside the local gasthaus.  8)

JR

 

[Kingston]

Since this is a long researched historical topic a fall of an empire shows an interesting perspective. The losses in key areas of power leading to the fall:

1) effectiveness and numbers of the army
2) health and numbers of the population
3) strength of the economy
4) competence of the Presidents (historical account quotes Emperors)
5) internal struggles for power
6) religious changes of the period
7) efficiency of the civil administration

The one in bold is closest related this thread but how many boxes would you tick?

 

[Scodiddly]

Cultural appropriation is a somewhat slippery concept, because the issue with it involves power - who has it, who doesn't.

A few weeks/months ago I was watching a Tiny Desk concert with a soul band - they were really good, all white guys, but they definitely had the style nailed.  A lot of the comments were about that, and it got me thinking.  Sure, there's nothing wrong with Culture A learning from Culture B, regardless of who (is being) (historically been) oppressed and who is the oppressor. 

The problem is that over a long time, you might notice that a lot of the acts playing such music on TV and selling a lot of records are white, even if the style was originated by black people who still play that style as well.  Elvis Presley as an example.  Now was Elvis deliberately ripping off black people?  Were his promoters?  Hard to say, but Elvis ended up much bigger than the people who created the style in which he performed.  And during a time of heavily segregated media, it's definitely a form of appropriate to take an ethnic style of music, find a white performer who can do it, and make it a "new" sensation.

Look at how much "New Country" music sounds like modern R&B tracks with a cowboy hat on top.

 

[Gold]

It’s about power but it’s also about talent. If you’re good no one complains. The Beastie Boys, Eminem, Justin Timberlake.

 

[shabtek]

re:

Look at how much "New Country" music sounds like modern R&B tracks with a cowboy hat on top.

in an interview with t.bone burnett a few months ago he said something like: this modern 'country genre' is all about identity politics and it is rap music for people that don't like blacks...
while the quip resonates with me

the identity politics connection is a symptom of the times i think--there have been lots of country 'hooks' that rely on some identifier for at least a few decades, a simple formula that exploits the novel.

rap has taken advantage and commercializes on the novel or new, it's a good formula

in this scope there appears cultural appropriation going on .
could this definition of culture be: that which sells (or has been sold)?

 

[Gold]

I’ve always seen country and R&B as closely related. If by country you mean Nashville pop. Take a hit in one genre and I can usually reimagine it in the other. It’s been that way for a very long time. If i listen to pop music from before 1940 it’s very difficult for me to tell the “ black “ from the “white” music. I suppose a lot of kids today would have a hard time telling R&B from the 1950 s from country of the same period.

 

[DaveP]

I thought that  Ray Charles "appropriated" it away from Black Gospel Churches first!

DaveP

 

[Script]

Stealing from your 'kin' is fine, while stealing from the 'others' is bad ??  No, I think it was stealing is bad, no matter what.

Now, when you take something that is yours and change it, it's fine. However,  when you 'steal' something and change it to pretend its yours, it's unethical. Clear. But now change 'steal' to 'imitate' in above sentence and it quickly becomes a question of motive or underlying spirit ( honesty / dishonesty ).

Moreover,  not only when someone (1) directly steals what is yours, but sometimes also (2) when they only  imitates it, or (3) you only think they did or  (4) you nothing but claim that  they did,  it becomes even more so 'yours' -- at least for you.

And it is here, just like with culture, where it gets complicated, and even more so, also because defining a given culture also always involves a lot of demarcating in negative terms what it IS NOT (example: 'NO taxation WITHOUT representation').

Anyway, with cultural appropriation I tend to go by these lines : its about 'quoting' the source (meaning: being ethical) or obfuscating the source (meaning; being unethical). The rest , of course, is open to interpretation, creative misunderstanding, and maybe even novel authentification, if the result is convincing, novel , or authentic.

Most young Japanese women today do NOT own a kimono -- they RENT one when needed.

But as we all know, in the vast majority of cases when something's taken over only in 'form' but completely misses out on the cultural reference (or utterly fails to create a novel reference), these 'appropriations' end up as little more than being ridiculous and downright kitsch. Might feel offended by that but only bored people really do, I tend to believe.

Now enter present-day politics and agendas, and it easily gets even more twisted -- so over and out.

 

[JohnRoberts]

When exactly did cultural appropriation (or more properly misappropriation) become a high crime?

It seems only relatively recently that social justice warriors reframed playing "cowboys and indians" as blatant oppression by a dominant culture. Halloween used to be a lot more fun, and less of a minefield before the #metoo generation found their voice on social media. This just seems like another opportunity for internet scolds to snipe on social media.

Some cultures resist change but the US is (mostly) proud of our melting pot history. 

JR

PS: I have very strong opinions about "stealing" IP but even this is a natural stage of economic development. The US was guilty of "borrowing" European IP when just starting out, we have moved beyond that after having more IP to lose than gain. China is just now in the same stage of development and wrestling with changing their IP spots. 

 

[boji]

I've said it before, but I attribute it to all the kids that were duped into thinking the way to make the world a better place is to adopt the philosophies of their college humanity departments.  Those kids are now grown up, and many have become activists for that worldview. Social media has given them great leverage for calling out 'evil'.  Jordan Peterson's point rings true to me that (paraphrased), "Postmodern literary theory and Marxist philosophies taught in college English departments have infected many with the need to measure words and images against an ever-present, all-encompassing dominance hierarchy, as there are no objective truths anymore- merely historical interpretations from those of the ruling class."
This has managed to re-frame any harmless or innocent celebration of each other's fashion and music into a game of selling laundry detergent against viral links of injustice or appropriation. What we get to say, sing, wear or pantomime must fall in line with which group we identify with, and must signal we have cleaned out our wardrobes and head-spaces of all 'wrong think'.  It is Orwell's 1984 sent over TCP/IP.