Cultural Appropriation

[dmp]

You can also think of it in system terms - like the concept of entropy in thermodynamics. The entropy measures the disorder of a system. Imagine a container with different colored balls and they are initially separated by color - after shaking for awhile the balls will no longer be separated by color - will be all mixed up

The distinctions of society (regional, artistic) are blended over time. People copy, mimic, move, mate.

 

[dmp]

In my judgement most voters in either party are not very well informed, or critical thinkers, otherwise the career politicians would have been drummed out of office long ago (drain the swamp).

People also lack empathy - the ability to imagine yourself in another person's shoes. Would I have the same principals if I were someone else? i.e. older, younger, different race, sex, socioeconomic status. 

 

[JohnRoberts]

People also lack empathy - the ability to imagine yourself in another person's shoes. Would I have the same principals if I were someone else? i.e. older, younger, different race, sex, socioeconomic status.

Not to feed this veer, but empathy is a "feelings" thing. Critical thinking already considers "why" different people think differently because of their different life experience (among other things).

Manipulating audiences is based on them having empathy... Scary news reports are scary precisely because people imagine themselves in the plane crash, or flood, or whatever. Political manipulation routinely asks voters to identify with some injured party, saying you're next, or that could be you.

Empathy is human nature, what isn't human nature and related is that other people do not think exactly like you or I do. We interpret the same events differently because of our different frames of reference.

A glaring example of different frames of reference is one of the four freshmen (Ilhan Omar) who is unrepentantly anti-Semitic. Taken at face value it is hard to accept her public utterances as rational thought, but she was born in Somali that her family left during a civil war when she was 8. She also spent time in a Kenyan refuge camp before settling in the Twin cities area a few decades ago. She was raised in a culture that scapegoated and blamed the Jews for everything unfortunate. Her life experience since then has apparently not informed her differently (and she is representing a district apparently sympathetic to her views).

It is good to have the perspective of a muslim naturalized African born representative, in congress. Think of the insights she could share with us all. Instead I find most of her recent public comments cringeworthy. I hope she becomes more tolerant of others instead of doubling down on her radical views. Her defense that she is being attacked simply because she is a woman of color, and not for her ideas is a little too convenient. I do not expect her to be a single isolated example, but logically has like minded constituents who elected her to represent them.

I am not trying to smear the entire district but understand the apparent dissonance between her and the rest of her party.   

JR

PS: I'm of the age that thinks of Minneapolis-St Paul as where Mary Tyler Moore lived and worked. Things change.  8)

 

[midwayfair]

The study in that Guardian article says that people are bad at guessing the dominant political beliefs of people in the opposite party. It has nothing to do with recognizing "one's own political biases." Here's the original authors rather than some dork at the Guardian using it as a springboard for their own opinion: https://heterodoxacademy.org/social-science-partisan-perception-gap/

The same group did, however, previously show that education makes people less tolerant of their political opponents' views: https://heterodoxacademy.org/research-summary-education-ideological-prejudice/ (What a shocker: Those of us who have done 6+ years of schooling think we're smarter than everyone else ... I would imagine that it gets worse the closer one is to being a physicist, though https://xkcd.com/793/)

Manipulating audiences is based on them having empathy... Scary news reports are scary precisely because people imagine themselves in the plane crash, or flood, or whatever. Political manipulation routinely asks voters to identify with some injured party, saying you're next, or that could be you.

I'm not trying to be overly argumentative, but I wouldn't call that empathy at all. Fearing for your own safety is not "understanding the feeling of another."

People are shit at actually being broadly empathetic. You can manipulate peoples' actionable empathy by making sure they're hearing about something bad happening to an in-group (https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/can_your_politics_predict_how_empathic_you_are) just like you can manipulate them into taking bad actions (like, say, piling on online) or more harshly judging a person (juries ...) who isn't a member of their in-group.

Empathy also tracks with one's position on the political spectrum, but not everyone has the same values.

 

[Scodiddly]

A glaring example of different frames of reference is one of the four freshmen (Ilhan Omar) who is unrepentantly anti-Semitic. Taken at face value it is hard to accept her public utterances as rational thought, but she was born in Somali that her family left during a civil war when she was 8. She also spent time in a Kenyan refuge camp before settling in the Twin cities area a few decades ago. She was raised in a culture that scapegoated and blamed the Jews for everything unfortunate. Her life experience since then has apparently not informed her differently (and she is representing a district apparently sympathetic to her views).

I'm aware that the President is currently using Omar as a public punching bag, to the point of making the clearly racist demand that she "go back where she came from".  Can you provide any reliable sources to the things she's been claimed to say, perhaps in an unedited form so we can see the context?

 

[Gold]

She’s not “unrepentantly anti-semetic”. She has problems with the State of Israel’s  policy towards the Palestinians. There is good reason for that. Plenty of Israelis are no fan of the current government and its policies.

 

[DaveP]

I'm aware that the President is currently using Omar as a public punching bag, to the point of making the clearly racist demand that she "go back where she came from".  Can you provide any reliable sources to the things she's been claimed to say, perhaps in an unedited form so we can see the context?

If you take Trump's quote to "go back to where you came from" out of context, it sounds racist especially if you are coloured, but the actual quote was "go back to where you came from (originated) and sort out those countries problems, then come back and tell us how you did it".  In other words be grateful for the opportunities that the US has given you instead of criticizing so much.  They are also using Trump as a punchbag by calling for his impeachment constantly, so no surprise then that he hits back.

From this side of the pond, it seems pointless to still be harping on about your last election result when the next one is so close.  Shouldn't the Democratic party be offering the electors some attractive policies instead?  I can never understand why you guys leave it so late to choose a candidate, it would have made much more sense to have decided that in 2017 in order to prepare, co-ordinate policy and opposition.  The Democratic party has lost control of its message  by not having  a candidate in place so that now you have "The Squad" filling the vacuum !  From here it looks like you have given Trump four more years by being  so disorganised.  The chaos at your border also plays into his hands because he had a policy "The Wall" and you blocked it without offering a practical alternative, so that your facilities became overwhelmed, well maybe you  did but all we heard was Mueller.

The rest of the world is getting a foretaste of future catastrophe and you lot are still dealing with 2016!  Er....The house is on fire ...........  Hello?.......... anyone at home?

DaveP

 

[Scodiddly]

Shouldn't the Democratic party be offering the electors some attractive policies instead?

The chaos at your border also plays into his hands because he had a policy "The Wall" and you blocked it without offering a practical alternative, so that your facilities became overwhelmed, well maybe you  did but all we heard was Mueller.

The Democratic candidates are indeed presenting policies, some quite detailed.  Hard to get the press to notice that sort of thing when Trump is blustering about.  Which tells you something about the sorry state of our mainstream press.

There are also plenty of detailed proposals for immigration on the southern border, and in fact "the wall" is not only impractical but also unpopular with a majority of Americans.

 

[dmp]

If you take Trump's quote to "go back to where you came from" out of context, it sounds racist especially if you are coloured, but the actual quote was "go back to where you came from (originated) and sort out those countries problems, then come back and tell us how you did it".  In other words be grateful for the opportunities that the US has given you instead of criticizing so much. 

3 of the 4 were born in the US (Ocasio-Cortez, Pressley, Tlaib).  All 4 are US citizens.
Why is it only people of color that are unpatriotic when they make criticisms?  And why are they the ones that should go back where they came from?
It was absolutely racially motivated - whether it was subconscious or intended, I don't know or care.
Would it have made any sense for Trump to tell Bernie Sanders to go back where he came from? He notably did not, even though Bernie is the most 'socialist' of the Dem candidates.

Trump complained and criticized the USA a ton over the previous administration, including the unfounded, birther conspiracy against Obama. That also smacked of racial motivation. 
The ability of people to defend Trump never fails to amaze me.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I'm aware that the President is currently using Omar as a public punching bag, to the point of making the clearly racist demand that she "go back where she came from". 

In classic President Trump mouth in gear before his brain was engaged, he tweeted.. (I wish he was a drinker, that would make these easier to explain, but he is just an old blowhard with no filters.)

So interesting to see “Progressive” Democrat Congresswomen, who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe, the worst, most corrupt and inept anywhere in the world (if they even have a functioning government at all), now loudly......

...and viciously telling the people of the United States, the greatest and most powerful Nation on earth, how our government is to be run. Why don’t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came. Then come back and show us how....

A strictly racist epithet would not invite them back, but more of a "show us how to do this better" than just shut up and go away.

Made even more embarrassing because only Omar was born in Somalia, the other three were born in the US.  :-[

Can you provide any reliable sources to the things she's been claimed to say, perhaps in an unedited form so we can see the context?

Seriously you want me to do your homework?  This pattern goes back before she was elected to serve in Washington.  Here is one recent example from a search.

Rep Omar apologized recently (Feb) when criticized by house leadership for comments they characterized as "anti Semitic tropes."  IIRC that time was something like "its all about the Benjamins baby" a prejudicial accusation about Israel's supporters.  She deleted that tweet the next day.

Rather than going down the rabbit hole of whataboutism, President Trumps tweet was not very statesmanlike (pretty much the opposite), and her bias is IMO explained by her cultural background. If she wants to have a thoughtful discussion about support for Israel perhaps stop the disrespectful slurs, and engage on actual policy.

I am uncomfortable giving president Trump credit for masterful political strategy, his instincts seem to be intact, and raising the profile of these four is not good for the democrat party, thus the push back from democratic leadership.  The "woman of color" is not some get out of jail free card defending them from criticism for their intemperate statements. President Trump is an equal opportunity counter-puncher, punching all the way down to freshmen in congress (of any background).  :

Not smart politics but so far working for him.

JR

 

[dmp]

(Ilhan Omar) who is unrepentantly anti-Semitic.

Seriously you want me to do your homework? 

I think he was diplomatically asking you to back up a what YOU said.  What you said was a very strong partisan smear without a basis in fact.

Pointing out money in politics and the effect it has in the Israel - Palastein debate in the US gov. does not qualify as "unrepentantly anti-Semitic"
Israel does not have 100% clean hands in the mideast conflict, which should be obvious to anyone. The region is a mess.

have a thoughtful discussion about support for Israel perhaps stop the disrespectful slurs,

Like what?  The things that the conservative sites harp about fall apart if you see the intent and context. Some are outright lies.

What is important is why is the bar so different for what a Muslim Congresswomen can say (Omar) vs what a white Republican can say?  Trump has said unrepentantly ignorant, rude, racist and dumb things which you call

not very statesmanlike

,

This is such a biased view it is laughable.

Maybe this would be a good time to evaluate your own biases, or else admit you are just playing politics and not adding anything of value to the people here who are actually trying to have a good faith discussion.

 

[Gold]

I heard an interview with Deb Haaland Native American Congresswoman from New Mexico. She said she is a 35th generation New Mexican. Her faimily arrived there in the late 1200’s. She should tell Trump to go back to Germany for criticizing America. As should many African Americans whose ancestors have been here about 400 years.

 

[JohnRoberts]

This is such a biased view it is laughable.

Maybe this would be a good time to evaluate your own biases, or else admit you are just playing politics and not adding anything of value to the people here who are actually trying to have a good faith discussion.

As I have said multiple times we are all biased and prejudiced, its how our caveman ancestors were wired and helped them survive so was retained and passed along by evolution.

Your perception of my political is bias is probably the same as my perception of your political bias...  This too is not news , or shouldn't be.

Good luck all, I expect more of this small ball politics between now and the 2020 vote. Which I refuse to predict because I was so wrong last time.

JR

PS: So far nobody has really challenged my observation about cultural programming, other than dismiss or criticize my language as biased. I find politics interesting to observe and attempt to understand. It is impossible to join in the mud slinging without getting your own hands muddy. I was not trying to demonize Rep Omar, more like trying to understand her perspective. I guess in the modern political climate it is not possible to discuss such things calmly. 

 

[Matador]

I guess in the modern political climate it is not possible to discuss such things calmly.

I think people are more reacting to your own seeming inability to hold the people you agree with to the same standard as those you disagree.  To quote John Stewart, "Be consistent in your outrage."

 

[Gold]

I was not trying to demonize Rep Omar, more like trying to understand her perspective. I guess in the modern political climate it is not possible to discuss such things calmly.

Her statement about the American Israeli lobby being "all about the Benjamins" was impolitic, which she apologized for. The sentiment that the American Jews have made lobbying for Israel a powerful force in American politics can not be disputed. If you are running for office  and cross AIPAC you will pay a price. As illustrated by the giant blowback.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I think people are more reacting to your own seeming inability to hold the people you agree with to the same standard as those you disagree.  To quote John Stewart, "Be consistent in your outrage."

How many times do I have to call President Trump a blowhard... ? That he clearly is.

At the same time I do not consider myself or him a racist/white supremacist. It appears opinions vary about both.

JR

PS: "Selective outrage" is one of Stewart's go to strategies to change the subject to be about the critic, and not the issue under discussion (a little verbal judo flip. ) He overused that in his public exchanges with Bill O'Reilly (FOX) that benefitted both of their show's ratings (way back when both had TV shows). 

PPS: It is also straight out of the rules for radicals to put me on the defensive with personal attack, again  instead of discussing the actual topic.

 

[Matador]

PS: "Selective outrage" is one of Stewart's go to strategies to change the subject to be about the critic, and not the issue under discussion (a little verbal judo flip. ) He overused that in his public exchanges with Bill O'Reilly (FOX) that benefitted both of their show's ratings (way back when both had TV shows). 

PPS: It is also straight out of the rules for radicals to put me on the defensive with personal attack, again  instead of discussing the actual topic.

It's a go to strategy because it happens to be right:  one cannot be for something when proposed by an 'R', then against it when proposed by a 'D'.  It is the literal definition of "selective outrage".  It's a super-easy to test oneself on:  if the opposite party had said it, would the reaction be the same?

Now if you are telling me that characterizing something as 'unstatesman-like' (when tweeted by an R)  is exactly the same rebuke as calling someone 'an unrepentant anti-semite' (when tweeted by a D) then I'll stand corrected and drop it.

BTW: unrepentant means "showing no remorse for one's wrongdoings", it leaves me challenged to explain Omar's follow-up tweet:

Anti-Semitism is real and I am grateful for Jewish allies and colleagues who are educating me on the painful history of anti-Semitic tropes.  My intention is never to offend my constituents or Jewish Americans as a whole.  We always have to be willing to step back and think through criticism, just as I expect people to hear me when others attack me for my identity.  This is why I unequivocally apologize.

 

[Scodiddly]

In classic President Trump mouth in gear before his brain was engaged, he tweeted.. (I wish he was a drinker, that would make these easier to explain, but he is just an old blowhard with no filters.) A strictly racist epithet would not invite them back, but more of a "show us how to do this better" than just shut up and go away.

I am uncomfortable giving president Trump credit for masterful political strategy, his instincts seem to be intact, and raising the profile of these four is not good for the democrat party, thus the push back from democratic leadership.  The "woman of color" is not some get out of jail free card defending them from criticism for their intemperate statements. President Trump is an equal opportunity counter-puncher, punching all the way down to freshmen in congress (of any background).  :

Actually my biggest revelation from this argument is that even Trump's supporters seem to believe that he's suffering some mental decline.

 

[boji]

It is also straight out of the rules for radicals to put me on the defensive with personal attack

I saw the where the tone of this thread was going (and some other brewery threads) about 15 posts back and I'm happy I didn't go defending anything too much. The atmosphere is one of defense instead of inquiry. Instruction instead of curiosity.

Part of the nature of being ideologically possessed is the feeling of being unable to resist the urge to defend an idea when someone brings up evidence to the contrary, because for this person, the debate is at the level of who they are.  Instead of steel-manning, you get whataboutism, mincing words, ad-hominem.

Moving to the middle of the political spectrum in some sense has let me see what it means to be left or right for the first time. I highly recommend it if you have hypertension. =D

Edit: Please excuse the aside. Carry on.

 

[DaveP]

The ability of people to defend Trump never fails to amaze me.

He hardly needs help with his defence, but I just dislike the media for taking quotes out of context to fit in with their "he's a racist"  agenda.

If Trump is a racist, why is he trying to get ASAP Rocky released from Sweden?

I think Trump (and half of America) is wrong on climate change, but I respect the democratic process that elected him and hope for a change of mind, hopefully before it's too late.

DaveP