Dammit...a missing tool from my kit!

[JohnRoberts]

That's true, of course. But I'm looking at Ford as an example. Several failed new engines because one of the cylinders had the oil-separation ring missing. That's not an engineering failure. That's purely because of a bad work environment in the factory.

I assume that's a personal anecdote? My 1997 Ford has all of its oil rings and is still running fine.

When I read Ford loses 66.000$ per EV sold, it's a management failure. They would be better off not trying hard to keep the "Made in the USA" label. After all, one of their largest US suppliers, Harman, perhaps isn't a US company anymore, since Samsung owns them by now.

Huh? OK I found the press release claiming a $66k loss per EV. Your currency notation was not very clear. The automakers were encouraged to lean into the EV market expecting stronger government support (like building out charging stations).

The made in USA deal for US automakers is not a marketing thing, but mandated domestic content by government regulations to qualify for incentives/tax breaks. Sourcing US made batteries is a problem since the most recent rules change. Only Tesla is ahead of the pack in that regard.

Hertz is selling off some 20,000 of their Teslas because the customers don't want to even rent them.

Everything is global, wether we like it or not.

like the climate?

The only thing I try hard to buy local, is food. I hope I don't have to explain why.

Hard to not buy local food.... while lots of out of season crops can come from distant sources.

JR

 

[Whoops]

The only thing I try hard to buy local, is food.

That's because you don't live in the UK, otherwise the last thing you would want was to buy local food

 

[scott2000]

That's because you don't live in the UK, otherwise the last thing you would want was to buy local food

lol

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

Hard to not buy local food.... while lots of out of season crops can come from distant sources.

We get Kiwi Fruit and Oranges from the USA

 

[Rob Flinn]

for sure... I feel pretty safe on a Boeing

Can't say I do, especially in their 737 Max.

"Last week, the US regulator extended the grounding of 737 Max's with similar fuselage panels, while United and Alaska Airlines have said they were extending the cancellations of any flights involving the 737 Max 9 through until Wednesday.
The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) also said it would conduct an audit of the plane's production line, adding it believed there were "significant problems" with the 737 Max 9 jet as well as "other manufacturing problems".
Announcing the latest measures, Stan Deal, who heads up Boeing's commercial division, said the company was "not where we need to be".
Scrutiny of Boeing has been renewed after the blowout on the Alaska Airlines flight from Portland, Oregon to California, which forced an emergency landing but resulted in no serious injuries.
The US aerospace giant has been struggling to restore confidence after crashes in 2018 and 2019 involving a different plane in the 737 Max group killed 346 people."

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

Considering over 27 lawsuits filed against Boeing for preventable crashes by one law firm alone since 1990, 6000 aviation accidents, 415 fatal 9000 deaths plus massive fines for defrauding the FAA I’d probably not feel so comfortable in one.
When you travel in a boomerang with motors it’s going to come back down - with or without the motors - or doors or anything else held on by bolts, rivets or welds. Like the near fatal windscreen blowout of a BAC 1-11 in 1990 - windscreen bolts were 2.5mm short and 0.7mm less in diameter than spec - the screen had originally been fitted with the wrong bolts and the replacement screen that blew out they used the same size rather than those the manuals specified - they didn’t engage the locking nuts properly.

 

[cyrano]

I assume that's a personal anecdote? My 1997 Ford has all of its oil rings and is still running fine.

That's with very recent Fords, still under warranty. There's a guy on youtube who tears down motors for a living who made a vid about it, but I first heard it from a friend of mine who bought a Mustang. The engine failed at 8.000 km (6,400 miles), under warranty. It wasn't a complete fail, but an engine creating a smoke curtain while starting doesn't induce much confidence in a new customer's head.

Huh? OK I found the press release claiming a $66k loss per EV. Your currency notation was not very clear. The automakers were encouraged to lean into the EV market expecting stronger government support (like building out charging stations).

The made in USA deal for US automakers is not a marketing thing, but mandated domestic content by government regulations to qualify for incentives/tax breaks. Sourcing US made batteries is a problem since the most recent rules change. Only Tesla is ahead of the pack in that regard.

Yep. Good old-fashioned protectionism. GM sold it's European operation to Stellantis. Current Opels are licensed Peugeot/Mitsubushi tech. They made 768 million € profit in the first year. GM had been loosing money in the EU for decades...

Yet, there still are people who think Stellantis is a US company. They have aquired Chrysler/Jeep, but the rest is very global. Italian/French/German/Korean/Chinese.

The current car market is no longer about brands. A Dodge Ram van, fi, is really a Fiat (Iveco). A Citroën C1 is really a Toyota. Etc.

Hertz is selling off some 20,000 of their Teslas because the customers don't want to even rent them.

Not only Teslas. Biggest loss are the Chevy Volts. Nobody wants them. At least the Teslas and Nissan Leafs will sell for good money.

Hard to not buy local food.... while lots of out of season crops can come from distant sources.

It isn't hard. Origin isn't always specified. And supermarkets keep relabeling. Fresh chicken doesn't get thrown away when it almost reaches it's "sell by" date. It gets roasted and sold with another "sell by" date. Etc.

You just need to open your eyes and buy from other sources if the supermarket doesn't sell what you like. Local (farmer) markets etc. Even gardener's exchange clubs on FB. Most organic farms have farm shops. Again, etc.

The Chinese are readying a new type of battery. Over 90% of all electric buses in the world are Chinese. These have already been running these batteries for years, so it's a mature product. Energy density is higher, life is very much longer. After years of duty in a vehicle, the batteries are repurposed in non-mobile energy storage. Life cycle should be 30 to 40.000 recharge cycles, with 65% of capacity after 20.000 cycles.

Oh, and did I mention these can't catch fire? Not even when crushed?

Several other new developments are coming in that field. Yet the punters only seem interested in finding the weak points of existing battery tech.

Enough thread hijacking. Wasn't this about tools?

 

[JohnRoberts]

That's with very recent Fords, still under warranty. There's a guy on youtube who tears down motors for a living who made a vid about it, but I first heard it from a friend of mine who bought a Mustang. The engine failed at 8.000 km (6,400 miles), under warranty. It wasn't a complete fail, but an engine creating a smoke curtain while starting doesn't induce much confidence in a new customer's head.

I don't get industry news from influencers... I see the guy you are talking about on FB but ignore him.

I have owned several mustangs over the decades, and still drive a 1997. Never had one piston ring issue. Of course my evidence is one person anecdotal too.

Yep. Good old-fashioned protectionism. GM sold it's European operation to Stellantis. Current Opels are licensed Peugeot/Mitsubushi tech. They made 768 million € profit in the first year. GM had been loosing money in the EU for decades...

Yet, there still are people who think Stellantis is a US company. They have aquired Chrysler/Jeep, but the rest is very global. Italian/French/German/Korean/Chinese.

Who? Anyone paying attention over the years watched Chrysler get bailed out by the government (at the same time as GM). FWIW Ford did not need the bailout back then.

The current car market is no longer about brands. A Dodge Ram van, fi, is really a Fiat (Iveco). A Citroën C1 is really a Toyota. Etc.

don't tell the dealers and marketers....

Not only Teslas. Biggest loss are the Chevy Volts. Nobody wants them. At least the Teslas and Nissan Leafs will sell for good money.

I just looked at Hertz used cars for sale website... They had some Chevrolet "Bolts".

It isn't hard. Origin isn't always specified. And supermarkets keep relabeling. Fresh chicken doesn't get thrown away when it almost reaches it's "sell by" date. It gets roasted and sold with another "sell by" date. Etc.

I buy lots of meat marked down as it approaches sell by dates.... I bought some steak last week for close to half price... (aged beef for less money).

You just need to open your eyes and buy from other sources if the supermarket doesn't sell what you like. Local (farmer) markets etc. Even gardener's exchange clubs on FB. Most organic farms have farm shops. Again, etc.

Not in Hickory, MS...

The Chinese are readying a new type of battery. Over 90% of all electric buses in the world are Chinese. These have already been running these batteries for years, so it's a mature product. Energy density is higher, life is very much longer. After years of duty in a vehicle, the batteries are repurposed in non-mobile energy storage. Life cycle should be 30 to 40.000 recharge cycles, with 65% of capacity after 20.000 cycles.

I have been holding my breath for promised battery breakthroughs for decades...

Oh, and did I mention these can't catch fire? Not even when crushed?

I hear that some EVs can't even be charged in very cold weather.... It was in the news.

Several other new developments are coming in that field. Yet the punters only seem interested in finding the weak points of existing battery tech.

My brother worked for GE in the UK on new battery technology last century... New battery breakthroughs have been just around the corner forever...

Enough thread hijacking. Wasn't this about tools?

Pretty much...

JR

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

They just ran an economy test on petrol vs EV for identical cars BMW 740 and i7 from Melbourne to Sydney 876km a few days ago. It cost more to run the EV than the petrol with more frequent stops for the EV to recharge. Long way to go yet……..
Back to tools I’ve had two Toledo engineering rules (150 & 300mm) made in Japan I bought in 1998 - all the black writing is as brand new with marginal metal discolouration from epoxy resins and a digital caliper the same age still works perfectly. I also have a vernier caliper (works like a slide rule) and micrometer from the ‘50s I got from my father in the ‘90s still in perfect condition.

 

[Brian Roth]

I'm NOT a "USA USA USA!" tool snob by any stretch. Decades ago, the specialized sheet metal shop I used for chassis fabrication used Mitutoyo vernier/dial calipers, so I bought one myself. Great Japanese tool, which was unfortunately stolen (with other tools) at a job site project. My current dial caliper is from an unknown asian brand but was a "Mitutoyo clone" I bought from a reputable industrial supply company.

What REALLY soured me about imported tools were various items my Stepdad and Mom (Both RIP) bought, used and sometimes gave me as xmas or birthday gifts.

Decades later, I REALLY regret not figuring a way I could have kept/stored Grandad Roth's incredible collection of USA-made hand and power tools after he passed. I was in the process of moving with a young family and had no feasible way to deal with that. IIRC, Dad donated it all to a charity.

Bri

 

[scott2000]

I’d probably not feel so comfortable in one.

They should change the name to Booing...

 

[Brian Roth]

They should change the name to Booing...

Reminds me of a friend who once worked for/hated the "Huge Aircrash" company <g>.

Bri

 

[scott2000]

lol..that's a good one...

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

Maybe Boing - the sound it makes when it hits.

 

[MicMaven]

Just curious and not intending to fan the fire ... but how can Ford lose $66,000 US on a car with a price tag around $66,000 US (more or less)? Are you guys claiming it is a total loss? I mean, it cannot be THAT band ... or can it? Or, am I corn-fused about what you guys are saying? JHR

 

[JohnRoberts]

Just curious and not intending to fan the fire ... but how can Ford lose $66,000 US on a car with a price tag around $66,000 US (more or less)? Are you guys claiming it is a total loss? I mean, it cannot be THAT band ... or can it? Or, am I corn-fused about what you guys are saying? JHR

By spending/investing more than that. I have asked to see the memo that declares we will all drive EVs by such and such a date... I still haven't seen it, but some automakers are trying to cooperate as if it was destined.

Ford developed their Mach-E that was interesting to me because it was faster than the IC mustangs. But even with them losing money on each sale they were still too expensive to interest me.

JR

 

[Rob Flinn]

They just ran an economy test on petrol vs EV for identical cars BMW 740 and i7 from Melbourne to Sydney 876km a few days ago. It cost more to run the EV than the petrol with more frequent stops for the EV to recharge. Long way to go yet……..

That's as maybe, but why would anyone do a long journey in an EV at the moment. In my view currently EV's are a great option for local journeys, especially if one has solar/wind power to charge them up. With the smart invertors you can get for renewable enegy today it's easy to make your local journeys for no fuel costs with an EV. The worst scenario for solar power in the U.K is selling it to the national grid where they pay you a small fraction of the price they sell you electricity. The biggest value is using the electricity oneself. Therefore if one has renewable power one needs to rethink the way of using electricity & one can reap a lot of benefits. With the latest smart invertors when your house batteries are full you can program it to (for example) heat your hot water & then when that is to temperature charge your car before selling to the grid when your car is fully charged. Since most car journeys are local having a small EV for these journeys & keeping a fossil fuel vehicle for long journeys makes a lot of sense. With some of the consessions available in different countires for buying EV's the savings can be quite a lot.

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

True regarding the cost of electricity and for local travel and charge at home EV’s, the cost would be less, but the charge time is very long and crosses over the off peak into peak usage times - early evenings and early mornings when there is no solar backup and so draws down on battery storage or straight off-grid consumption at higher cost rates. We pay way more for peak time usage here. Maybe we need to be looking at solar panel windows.
Less and less houses are being built relative to high rise accommodation. For apartment dwellers and city offices without a suitable roof area for solar and thus any real hope of decent solar/battery power sourcing, this is a huge direct grid drain.
In Australia (where we have lots of sunshine) the solar and wind power supply is way behind demand, they are already closing (and have already closed) coal fired power stations due to age and economics and commitment to renewable energy targets that are at the moment simply not feasible.
The cost of electricity is soaring. The state of Victoria suffers major power blackouts on hot days and cold nights and has to source power from other states, NSW is not far behind with similar occurrences. The infrastructure to support EV’s is way behind and though more and more charging stations are being implemented, the national power supply is woefully behind in its ability to provide the sort of power that will be required for a totally EV market slapped on top of already inadequate supply for domestic, commercial and industrial use without the use of fossil fuels.
We’re busy inventing the carts without any real source of horses to pull them.
There are billions of cubic kilometres of water flowing unharnessed into the ocean every minute in this country and likely the same in USA, UK and Europe (plus of course the inexorable tidal flows) that are an untapped source of energy - development of these sources of energy is often hamstrung by the plight of the affected fauna - maybe “green” concerns for the Lesser Spotted Blue Tit Warbler with its one remaining nest might be preventing the powering of a city or state???

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

Just curious and not intending to fan the fire ... but how can Ford lose $66,000 US on a car with a price tag around $66,000 US (more or less)? Are you guys claiming it is a total loss? I mean, it cannot be THAT band ... or can it? Or, am I corn-fused about what you guys are saying? JHR

I believe aircraft used to be sold at a loss - the real return on investment in R&D and construction was the supply of replacement spare parts - to build a plane from spares would cost many, many times the original cost, as would a car. Maybe Ford are getting kickback from government funding or just hope to sell lots of parts like electric motors and batteries and body panels to panel shops.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I believe aircraft used to be sold at a loss - the real return on investment in R&D and construction was the supply of replacement spare parts - to build a plane from spares would cost many, many times the original cost, as would a car. Maybe Ford are getting kickback from government funding or just hope to sell lots of parts like electric motors and batteries and body panels to panel shops.

not secret but developing new automobiles involve large capital investments up front that require years of sales to break even.

Tesla is one of the more successful EV makers in the US, BYD is the big dog in China.

JR