DBX 2001 VCA

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[quote author="gkhebert"]The best anyone remembers about the tape is that it was aluminized mylar.[/quote]
great... :grin:

...-A "pop-tart" bag!!! :green:

Keef

PS: -When I sat "POP-TART" I'm referring to the million-year-shelf-life preservative-laden article and not Madonna or Gwen Stefani... -Actually, the same description seems to fit, so I should clarify it further by making it clear that I'm referring to the one tha twould be considered an early morning treat... errrrrr.... Well, that might still not narrow it down much for some people... :shock:
 
Awesome Gary!
I don't think I would have been able to figure the above out on my own. Well maybe if I spent 20 years full time on it.

This circuit has sure gone through a lot of refinements over the years.

The transistors used in the 2001 I have were BC453's, BC 456's and the fets were J201's.
 
> tape is that it was aluminized mylar.

My DBX modules feel like self-adhesive aluminum, not metalized mylar.

You can get aluminum tape for sealing heating ducts. Not cloth duct tape, but real metal foil with glue. The stuff on mine feels like extra heavy duty- if you can only find regular foil-tape, try two wraps.

But the main thing is to get the two transistors coupled to each other better than to the rest of the world. Mylar, masking-tape, or a cardboard hat is a significant improvement over just putting the devices next to each other. Metal foil is even better. But you also should avoid drafts and nearby heat sources.
 
>The transistors used in the 2001 I have were BC453's, BC 456's and the fets were J201's.

What documentation we have here suggests that the NPNs were MPS8098's and the PNPs were MPS8598s. But you're right, it evolved over time. The important characteristics would be low Rb (especially important in VCAs with high quiescent bias current since it effects noise as well as log comformance) and low Re (bulk emitter resistance). Also, relatively flat beta with Ic in the range of interest (up to 1.5 mA) helps.

PRR is likely correct about the tape -- adhesive-backed aluminum is probably the right stuff.

He is also correct about the tradeoffs regarding quiescent current in the gain cell. If you're interested in exploring this topic, I address it somewhat in an AES paper that I did on our 218x-series VCAs. It's preprint number 4055. I'd post it here, but the AES owns the copyright.

Regards,
Gary
 
> Do these Class A jobs run very hot?

Signal current is usually scaled to about 1mA max. A rich class A VCA might run 3mA bias. 3mA bias at 0.7V is 2 milliwatts, temp rise about 1 deg C, essentially zero (either absolute or relative).

Remember that I looked at this 25 years ago, decided that VCAs were interesting but (unlike Gary) not my life's calling, and the little memory cells die off.

Working class A, THD is low but noise is high. However, noise is constant. And matching is not as critical.

In class B noise is low, but rises with signal. For perfect devices, THD could be low; for real devices it can be nasty or very small. The increasing perfection of devices made discrete class B acceptable, and (I may be wrong!) I think it became the usual way to do it. Monolithic devices would match N to N and P to P, but getting the PNPs to be anything like the NPNs was tough when they were on the same chip with affordable pre-1990(?) processes. There were some VCAs built with a PNP array and an NPN array, so each side could use an optimized (and existing and mass-produced) process: at least each polarity matched, even if you had to trim the P/N differences away. I gather that good PNP/NPN wafers are now quite possible; though the up-front cost of getting time on those foundries may be hard to swing considering the very small market for top-end audio VCAs. Obviously Gary is in touch with those aspects, though he may not care to share everything he hears at work.

Anyway, today you can buy VCAs with near-theoretical and very-very ample specs for the price of good lunch. Pre-trimmed to lowest THD for a buck more. And yet you lust for the bad old days. So I wonder if what you really want is a VCA that is not dead-perfect, that isn't the pinnacle of rational research and comments from large studio operators.

And of course: wha-cha-buildin'? If a limiter, you may not need a full VCA. If mono knob-controlled, you sure don't need the unit-to-unit precise gain-law that you need to gang two or 32 VCAs without image/mix-shift.
 
Signal current is usually scaled to about 1mA max. A rich class A VCA might run 3mA bias. 3mA bias at 0.7V is 2 milliwatts, temp rise about 1 deg C, essentially zero (either absolute or relative).

Remember that I looked at this 25 years ago, decided that VCAs were interesting but (unlike Gary) not my life's calling, and the little memory cells die off.


Yeah, well, sometimes shit happens. :grin:


Working class A, THD is low but noise is high. However, noise is constant. And matching is not as critical.

All correct. The only thing I would add is that matching is not so critcal for distortion performance, but even more important for offset vs. gain performance (control-port feedthrough) due to the high quiescent current. Hence, the persistance of a symmetry trim on the 2001. Of course, if you're not going to move the control port too fast, you may not care. Still, even a fast fader move might woof.

In class B noise is low, but rises with signal. For perfect devices, THD could be low; for real devices it can be nasty or very small. The increasing perfection of devices made discrete class B acceptable, and (I may be wrong!) I think it became the usual way to do it. Monolithic devices would match N to N and P to P, but getting the PNPs to be anything like the NPNs was tough when they were on the same chip with affordable pre-1990(?) processes. There were some VCAs built with a PNP array and an NPN array, so each side could use an optimized (and existing and mass-produced) process: at least each polarity matched, even if you had to trim the P/N differences away. I gather that good PNP/NPN wafers are now quite possible; though the up-front cost of getting time on those foundries may be hard to swing considering the very small market for top-end audio VCAs. Obviously Gary is in touch with those aspects, though he may not care to share everything he hears at work.

I would add that there are a couple of sources of distortion that become an issue with class B (or AB). One is the match of gain between the top and bottom of the gain cell (handling the negative and positive polarty signal currents, respectively). This is what the "symmetry" trim adjusts. The distortion resulting from a mismatch is almost purely 2nd harmonic -- a fact that some of our customers utilize deliberately. The "nasty" part would result from the wrong choice of input amplification stage for the VCA -- one whose open loop performance varies with the instantaneous transconductance of the gain-cell devices. Driving the gain cell from a heavily degenerated transconcuctance stage (class A, FWIW) makes the loop transmission essentially independent of the signal currents. (Still dependent on the gain setting, however.) This is one of the differences between our 218x devices and the older 215x devices.

Matching N's to N's and P's to P's is still the crucial part - but the P's still have to be "good" devices (i.e. adequate bandwidth, beta, log conformance.) The older 215X-series devices are built on an older foundry comlementary junction-isolated process. It has vertical PNPs that are pretty good, but still suffers from the relatively large collector-substrate capacitances inherent in a high-voltage JI process. And, since the gain-cell devices must be large for good log conformance (about 1/3 of the chip), those get pretty big. The 218x devices are built on a dielectrically isolated process in our own fab. The oxide isolation yields much reduced collector-substrate capacitance. The difficulty of maintaining the attention of foundries at our volumes was a big motivating factor in buying our own small fab. It's been a much longer and more expensive road to get the processes up and running than we ever expected, but it gives us a much greater level of control over what we're doing. This is starting to border on a sales pitch so I'll stop -- but we really do need to keep the volumes up in that fab :wink:

Gary
 
Good Lord. This is certainly going way above my wildest dreams as far as response is concerned. From "what is the purpose of R?" to this.
Many thanks Gary! And pitch all you want! It's worth it to us, believe me!

I am not worthy. I think I will go stuff myself down the garbage disposal.
But first I have to fool around with a discrete VCA. Too hard to take apart those chips for fun!

Besides, if I want to take something apart, I have a fresh shipment of transformers that just came in.

:green:

Again, Thanks you guys!
Excellant information.
:thumb:

Paul, did you mean memory cells, or gain cells?

:grin:
 
Hey Gary, I'll bet you could take the folks here down some interesting memory lanes re: classic dbx products created during the glory days pre-BSR.

btw - I worked for Dave and Zaki on the other side of the fence at Kintek with Dick Meyer. Applications engineering only of course, none of that under-the-hood stuff you did.
 
Since this thread has been bumped I thought I'd mention that the THAT transistor arrays can be used to roll your own VCA. There are NPN quads, PNP quads, and NPN pair-PNP pair parts.

My understanding from talking to someone there some while ago is that the chip is actually the same for all three parts---it's a limitation of the number of leads that restricts the availability of all the devices.

And, no....I don't think a group buy would make it attractive to THAT to bring out more leads in a different package :razz: However, you can buy the die and do it yourself if you are good at wire bonding (very doubtful, considering the equipment required, the training involved, and the long faces I see when even the use of SMD is discussed around here :green: ).

Actually, there is probably a place or two that would be willing to lay these down in a package and seal it. The setup charge would likely be substantial but maybe not prohibitive.

They are pretty good transistors, although I wish the betas were as high as some of the Tosh devices. I was told they had wide variations in breakdown voltage when they tried upping the beta. But, in log-antilog circuits of the David Blackmer style for which these devices excel, the beta isn't that important.
 
I have been able to restore this topic from the depths of database hell. :green:
 
Hi,
Does anyone know the exact value for the Zener diode marked CR5 (part. no. 140181) ?
Thank you in advance.

Respect,
Val
 
Dear All,
Forgive me, Why are you doing this? They were too noisy when they were new.
I could understand this if the subject was to retro-engineer the Gold 202C, Yes, but not the 2001. Yuk!! That picture of them not installed in a console is a good one.
Sorry HUA, really.
PC
 
Porkyc,

Not connected/related to George Peckham are you...?

(Just curious.)

I agree that if you want low noise and low distortion, the newer, lower-noise, lower-distortion, lower-cost, lower-grief THAT options are vastly superior.

I have found that people sometimes want some "rock-n-roll" flava, and I've sold a few 2001s as a result.

Not that I'd EVER contemplate building one though!

Keith
 
Hi porkyc


    gotta reply to your "Why?" . . .


      I have 4 different G-SSL's, all with different vca's in, 202c's, 2151. 2181, and 2001.


    . . . . .guess which one floats my boat . . . . .


    That's why!


      Kindest regaRDS,


    ANdyP
 
Answer to 2 questions.
No not George Peckham, but I do know MCI consoles backwards.
It was just that a 500D that I used to look after had 2001s, and I had put 202Cs into another and as always with tecchys, who cares what it sounded like, what did it measure!!? The 202C was just quieter, and was the best compromise. The 2001 was cleaner, but at a price, ie noise.
Did you not want an MCI 500 a little while ago?

Best regards
PC
 
Me, want an MCI 500? -Nope... sorry wrong bloke.

YeEs the 2001 are noisier. For classical or jazz applications they were pretty naughty, and not what you'd probably want at all. -But for Rock-n-roll where you're compressing a 10dB dynamic variation down to a 5dB dynamic variation, the noise is almost certainly not going to be noticeable until you press "stop"!

I suppose they are Class-A, and people tend to like them for that.

George Peckham... used to drop cigarette-ash on the lacquers while he was cutting them... half-pint in one hand, puffer-brush in the other... but I always used to smile when I saw "A porky prime cut" scratched into the leadout of a record!

Keith
 
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