Dealer vs. "authorized service center" repair tech

[Scodiddly]

For the past decade plus I've been working as the repair tech for a pro audio dealer. That's not really a full time job in itself; I also do some IT, work in the rental department, etc. Actually a fair amount of my repair work comes from the rental department, and a fair amount more comes from sales customers needing an on-site repair.  But I still do get some occasional walk-in repairs, and there's where I'm starting to see the problem.

What's becoming increasingly difficult is getting service documentation and support from some manufacturers, specifically the ones who are now part of bigger conglomerates.  Standalone companies like Shure and Yamaha are still great to deal with when it comes to getting documentation and advice.

But take a brand like Midas - used to be you'd call the repair line, and you'd be talking to the techs who did manufacturer repairs. Maybe I'd actually have to buy the service manual, back when it came in a binder, but if I just called and asked about why certain things didn't work the tech would tell me right away what component was probably at fault. But now that they're part of Music Group, it's almost impossible to even talk to somebody about ordering replacement faders.  And getting a schematic is now totally out of the question because we're not an authorized service center - being a dealer is no longer enough.

I dunno. It's starting to be less and less fun to deal with this kind of stuff.

 

[john12ax7]

When buying gear,  service is one thing I consider a lot.  There are some companies that I find very easy to deal with,  both in terms of phone support and getting repairs.  Good sounding gear with good support makes me a repeat  customer.  I also actively avoid companies with questionable service. 

So much industry is driven by lowest price instead of actual cost and value.  Kind of a shame,  but not sure what the solution is.

 

[JohnRoberts]

For the past decade plus I've been working as the repair tech for a pro audio dealer. That's not really a full time job in itself; I also do some IT, work in the rental department, etc. Actually a fair amount of my repair work comes from the rental department, and a fair amount more comes from sales customers needing an on-site repair.  But I still do get some occasional walk-in repairs, and there's where I'm starting to see the problem.

What's becoming increasingly difficult is getting service documentation and support from some manufacturers, specifically the ones who are now part of bigger conglomerates.  Standalone companies like Shure and Yamaha are still great to deal with when it comes to getting documentation and advice.

But take a brand like Midas - used to be you'd call the repair line, and you'd be talking to the techs who did manufacturer repairs. Maybe I'd actually have to buy the service manual, back when it came in a binder, but if I just called and asked about why certain things didn't work the tech would tell me right away what component was probably at fault. But now that they're part of Music Group, it's almost impossible to even talk to somebody about ordering replacement faders.  And getting a schematic is now totally out of the question because we're not an authorized service center - being a dealer is no longer enough.

I dunno. It's starting to be less and less fun to deal with this kind of stuff.

Music group may be a little tight about sharing data, if you consider their history and how they became the success they are.

IIRC they have their own in country service depot (LV, Nev.  IIRC)

I see more and more disposable product, and often it is the only thing that makes sense. Unless it something of mine that I can't fix.

JR 

 

[Scodiddly]

What's most annoying about this is that these are "pro audio" brands but the customer service has basically become "prosumer". Behringer does now have some regional service centers, but previously the only option was to send your mixer to Las Vegas.  What do in the interim? A lot of dealers have to keep something in stock to provide as a loaner now.  This is of course a better deal for the manufacturer, but not for the customer.

 

[JohnRoberts]

this has been a long term industry trend (for decades)... mass market is where the money/profit is so successful MI companies end up buying the slower growth pro companies.  It is mainly about exploiting the high end brand to the larger market, despite claims to the otherwise.

JR

 

[JMFahey]

One reason you can´t talk to knowledgeable Techs at Company headquarters is they are a dissappearing breed.

Companies don´t do the manufacturing any more for  a long time now, and for the last few years they are not even making the actual *designing*  either, beyond stating what kind of product or features they want.

Actual component level design is being made straight in China/Korea/Taiwan/Singapore/etc.  and "Famous Companies"  are become just retailers/distributors; that´s why Servicing level has gone down and  former Pro Audio products and everything around them is becoming more and more Consumer Audio level.

I am specifically into Musical Instrument amplification ane have found apparently different and competing products, say Bogner/Engl/Diezel/B52/Peavey amps with *exact same* schematics, same unreadable (chinese characters) signatures in the Schematics, showing they are all made by same giant OEM manufacturer Oriental Factory for VERY low cost.
Combine that with the sad fact that too many "old famous factories" have (commercially) failed, and just "Brand"  and "looks" are bought at auction by "investors" who then want a quick return, and they will most often order generic product with just the proper looks and attached label to profit from glory earned in the old days, by original Company founders.

A| *digital/DSP* VOX amplifier profiting on 60's and 70's use by Beatles/Rollings/Queen/Status Quo? ..... REALLY?  :

Or Kustom and "Acoustic Control Corporation" Bass amps, with the exact same circuit inside, same boards, everything, they only differ in front panel graphics, Tolex, knobs, cabinet hardware .... whatever matches the "mythical era"  ones used by the Guitar Gods , but inside .......

It sometimes gets funny when long flame wars start at some Guitar Forum, backing one or the other ... and I have seen the schematics and know they are the same 

 

[pucho812]

Having worked as a tech for a "company"  From my end it was about QC. if we did it, it was done to our spec.  We never gave out schematics because we didn't want anyone copying the IP. We did however play real nice and often went to great lengths to spell it out for you and what to look for if a person decided to send it elsewhere for repair, or fix it on their own. In the end most people could solve it with us and a phone call. Those that couldn't or didn't want to would send in units.  I get why they won't hand out that stuff these days but it makes it tough for those who are still professional at it.

 

[[silent:arts]]

We have a faulty summing amp in our SSL Duality.
Karen from the SSL Systems & Support Group is very nice and helpful,
but in todays world even large format consoles don't come with any service manual.

We do not supply schematics for console repairs and any support information you have found online.
We do block diagrams to identify which cards are at fault but this (and the videos) is the extent of the information we provide.
A traditional service manual is not available.

We do not normally support down to component level - though as you can see there are exceptions - it is usually replacement parts.

 

[ruairioflaherty]

showing they are all made by same giant OEM manufacturer in a rice and fishhead powered Oriental Factory.

As someone with "rice and fish head powered" Oriental Chinese children I'd suggest that it's time to update your language...

 

[JohnRoberts]

One reason you can´t talk to knowledgeable Techs at Company headquarters is they are a dissappearing breed.

Companies don´t do the manufacturing any more for  a long time now, and for the last few years they are not even making the actual *designing*  either, beyond stating what kind of product or features they want.

Actual component level design is being made straight in China/Korea/Taiwan/Singapore/etc.  and "Famous Companies"  are become just retailers/distributors; that´s why Servicing level has gone down and  former Pro Audio products and everything around them is becoming more and more Consumer Audio level.

I am specifically into Musical Instrument amplification ane have found apparently different and competing products, say Bogner/Engl/Diezel/B52/Peavey amps with *exact same* schematics, same unreadable (chinese characters) signatures in the Schematics, showing they are all made by same giant OEM manufacturer in a rice and fishhead powered Oriental Factory.

I was a design engineer at Peavey for 15 years near the end of last century, AFAIK they still have engineers in house. We were already building stuff in China last century, but using our designs, with specified components.

Or Kustom and "Acoustic Control Corporation" Bass amps, with the exact same circuit inside, same boards, everything, they only differ in front panel graphics, Tolex, knobs, cabinet hardware .... whatever matches the "mythical era"  ones used by the Guitar Gods , but inside .......

I knew some design engineers at Kustom and elsewhere. Of course I don't know what they are doing now.

It sometimes gets funny when long flame wars start at some Guitar Forum, backing one or the other ... and I have seen the schematics and know they are the same 

I suspect there is generic blow through product in the low end entry level SKUs. When I visited a large Chinese OEM's design facility in Hong Kong, they had the chops to replicate designs. Actually bragged about it.

As the industry matures cost gets pulled from the products that includes repairability (which adds to build cost), and service center responsiveness (techs can't fix stuff while talking on the phone all day).

JR

 

[JMFahey]

As someone with "rice and fish head powered" Oriental Chinese children I'd suggest that it's time to update your language...

Ok, done. 

 

[JMFahey]

I was a design engineer at Peavey for 15 years near the end of last century,

Cool 

AFAIK they still have engineers in house.

Probably, at least some.
It is still a Designer/Maker owned company, different from the Investors I mentioned using other brands.

We were already building stuff in China last century, but using our designs, with specified components.

Yes, definitely.
But that was , by your reckoning, more than 18 years ago.
I applaud Peavey for being one of the Companies which fiercely held manufacturing inside America, for as long as it could, but eventually it couldn´t hold against the Tsunami.
I was heart broken when most of the machinery was sold at auction a few years ago, and in fact learnt about it 15 days too late, I was ready to fly to USA and buy the big Magnetizer, including the huge capacitor bank, Controller and magnetizing yokes, including the monster one used for Black Widow magnets. Pity there were no takers as-is and was sold as scrap for peanuts.

I knew some design engineers at Kustom and elsewhere. Of course I don't know what they are doing now.

Oh, I used to know Rick Kukulies at Kustom, and yes, *he*  designs.
In fact , like most legit designers, he has a "style", everybody has his own pet ideas or ways to solve things, and that is recognizable.
For that very same reason, I often see a schematic and think "no, this is not a Peavey/Laney/Ampeg/Marshall/Fender/whatever design , but most probably a subcontracted one".

I suspect there is generic blow through product in the low end entry level SKUs. When I visited a large Chinese OEM's design facility in Hong Kong, they had the chops to replicate designs. Actually bragged about it.

No doubt about it 

As the industry matures cost gets pulled from the products that includes repairability (which adds to build cost), and service center responsiveness (techs can't fix stuff while talking on the phone all day).

You bet.
Many Factories have the infamous "DNR" list, meaning nothing included there can be repaired, but will  be replaced.
Sometimes they do not even want the broken unit back.

In theory at least, AWSC Techs are supposed to plain junk them, and are at most authorized to pull some "mechanical" item, think knobs and such which may be useful in a very minor repair, *maybe*  a speaker.

Not only for cheap 10W beginner´s amps!!!
Last time I saw it , it included FM212 Guitar amps and SWR Workingman Bass ones, go figure.

So if they are ready to straight replace such mid priced stuff instead of repairing it, no surprise actual Servicing has taken a back seat.
Oh well.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Many Factories have the infamous "DNR" list, meaning nothing included there can be repaired, but will  be replaced.
Sometimes they do not even want the broken unit back.

a couple years ago a large room dehumidifier I was using broke... It was within warranty and I determined the problem was a temperature thermocouple, or bad connection. The dehumidifier needs to know both temp and humidity to know relative humidity. They didn't want the unit back, just had me scrape the serial number plate off it, and sent me a new replacement. So now I have spare parts, assuming something else breaks next time.

Shipping cost has only gotten worse and this can easily wipe out the value of repairing older broken SKUs.

JR

In theory at least, AWSC Techs are supposed to plain junk them, and are at most authorized to pull some "mechanical" item, think knobs and such which may be useful in a very minor repair, *maybe*  a speaker.

Not only for cheap 10W beginner´s amps!!!
Last time I saw it , it included FM212 Guitar amps and SWR Workingman Bass ones, go figure.

So if they are ready to straight replace such mid priced stuff instead of repairing it, no surprise actual Servicing has taken a back seat.
Oh well.

 

[Scodiddly]

As I'm thinking about this, the thing that pops out is that to manufacturers the dealer isn't all that important any more. Banjo Mart cranks out the Behringer boxes, and then there's a regional service center if something goes bad.  Which makes sense depending on the manufacturer's target - Yamaha Commercial Audio is great to work with, as is Shure (they're a local company to us, and they will refer a customer needing onsite services to us), Meyer, etc.  It's the "pro" brands that have been absorbed into MI conglomerates that are starting to short change their customers.

And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised at all that guitar amps and little mixers are all the same inside.  But the high end pro companies (again, Shure, Yamaha, Meyer...) are doing new stuff every year. Shure especially, wireless is still a moving technology.

 

[john12ax7]

I can see some of the low end stuff being the same,  but the high end guitar amps are certainly not the same inside.  And they are also not built in China. A few do use the same US based contact manufacturer.

 

[ruairioflaherty]

As I'm thinking about this, the thing that pops out is that to manufacturers end users the dealer isn't all that important any more.

FTFY..... In all seriousness though end users are voting with their wallets and buying more and more directly.  I work with several pro audio brands in the U.S. and there are big shifts happening as local Mom and Pop shops go away and the biggies like VK, Sweetwater look to justify their margin.  Some do a better job than others.

If I was setting up an audio company today it would absolutely be direct sales only.

 

[JohnRoberts]

As I'm thinking about this, the thing that pops out is that to manufacturers the dealer isn't all that important any more. Banjo Mart cranks out the Behringer boxes, and then there's a regional service center if something goes bad.  Which makes sense depending on the manufacturer's target - Yamaha Commercial Audio is great to work with, as is Shure (they're a local company to us, and they will refer a customer needing onsite services to us), Meyer, etc.  It's the "pro" brands that have been absorbed into MI conglomerates that are starting to short change their customers.

Once again I am repeating myself but what else is new.

I give Greg Mackie credit(?) for making mom and pop music store superfluous. He spent millions of dollars advertising one  6(?) input mixer, pre-selling that one SKU so the dealers were powerless to influence the ultimate purchase decisions. Customers didn't want a mixer, they wanted that mixer.

And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised at all that guitar amps and little mixers are all the same inside.  But the high end pro companies (again, Shure, Yamaha, Meyer...) are doing new stuff every year. Shure especially, wireless is still a moving technology.

I wouldn't lose sleep over the details... the circus already left town and we aren't with them. Relax don't worry.

JR

 

[Scodiddly]

FTFY..... In all seriousness though end users are voting with their wallets and buying more and more directly.  I work with several pro audio brands in the U.S. and there are big shifts happening as local Mom and Pop shops go away and the biggies like VK, Sweetwater look to justify their margin.  Some do a better job than others.

Depends on the user. We get a lot of business from churches who really want somebody local and trustworthy to buy from, instead of mail-ordering everything and hope it works.  And that applies to big tech-savvy churches as well as traditional non-technical churches.

 

[Gold]

FTFY..... In all seriousness though end users are voting with their wallets and buying more and more directly. 

If I happen to need a disposable prosumer unit I'll look for the best price. If I'm buying something I expect to use and rely on every day I buy from a trusted dealer with excellent customer service. I'm willing to pay for it too. I've bought almost everything I have from Studio Consultants here in NY. They have a very limited line card. They happen to have the stuff I like. When I call them up they know me by name and bend over backwards if I have a problem, which I rarely do because its good stuff. They remember the days of the professional, expensive studio time and deadlines.

Shure is an incredible company. When I was there I was mightily impressed with the operation. A genuine audio engineering company that obviously treats their employees well.

 

[ruairioflaherty]

If I happen to need a disposable prosumer unit I'll look for the best price. If I'm buying something I expect to use and rely on every day I buy from a trusted dealer with excellent customer service. I'm willing to pay for it too. I've bought almost everything I have from Studio Consultants here in NY. They have a very limited line card. They happen to have the stuff I like. When I call them up they know me by name and bend over backwards if I have a problem, which I rarely do because its good stuff. They remember the days of the professional, expensive studio time and deadlines.

Shure is an incredible company. When I was there I was mightily impressed with the operation. A genuine audio engineering company that obviously treats their employees well.

100% agree Paul. Even with disposable and prosumer I'm making an effort to buy locally and support stores rather than Amazon, easier to do in L.A. / NYC of course than most other places.

Drew at Studio Consultants is a friend, as you say they are an old school operation and all the better for it.