Diy is getting expensive

[pucho812]

As prices for everything continues to rise, as companies continue to offer product for less money, the line between diy and commercial units is further blurred.
Diy as fun as it is, is getting close enough that I can get a commercial unit that does the same for slightly more cash.
For example to build a clone 1073 is about as much as a warm unit with mods.
It’s almost to the point where it’s not worth the expense at times.
For me the most expensive part is machining the chassis.

Any ideas on how to cut some of the costs?

 

[jasonallenh]

I would agree that the machining costs are a large part of the problem. Just getting a single panel here and there gets expensive. $300 for a case/panel of decent quality ends up being roughly the same as the cost of the circuit. Quantity discounts on a lot of stuff have dried up too. Personally, I'm going to try and stick to maxing out the number of channels per case. I figure if I can build an eq, I'll build 8 of them. I did the Gyraf PQ1549 build too- If I build that again, I'm just going to modify the first to have a DC out and take that into the next one instead of building a separate PSU. I also try and make sure I'm using my skills to make a little extra cash to put toward a project so it's not all sunk cost. 500 series seems like a much better format these days (if everything fits) cost-wise.

 

[pucho812]

I would agree that the machining costs are a large part of the problem. Just getting a single panel here and there gets expensive. $300 for a case/panel of decent quality ends up being roughly the same as the cost of the circuit. Quantity discounts on a lot of stuff have dried up too. Personally, I'm going to try and stick to maxing out the number of channels per case. I figure if I can build an eq, I'll build 8 of them. I did the Gyraf PQ1549 build too- If I build that again, I'm just going to modify the first to have a DC out and take that into the next one instead of building a separate PSU. I also try and make sure I'm using my skills to make a little extra cash to put toward a project so it's not all sunk cost. 500 series seems like a much better format these days (if everything fits) cost-wise.

Well discount does save but I usually do not need discount metal work.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I shut down my kit business (that was driven by customers trying to save money) back in the 80s when I could buy assembled SKUs (made in Japan at the time) for less money than my kit parts cost me.

If anything the calculus has gotten even worse for DIY since then.

JR

 

[hodad]

I think on a certain level the diy world's success is its own undoing. As the designs we diy have become more popular, it's made more sense for manufacturers to mass-produce those designs. Outside of transformers, there's not much expensive in an 1176, or in most solid state mic preamps. When there's enough demand to justify scaled-up production, prices are likely to slip--even to the point of being less than diy. And part of what's brought attention to a lot of these designs is communities like ours (though gearslutzspace has probably had more impact than this place.)

Lots of other factors come into play, but it's interesting to contemplate the role of online fora in stoking the demand that helped bring these cheaper products to market.

 

[living sounds]

As prices for everything continues to rise, as companies continue to offer product for less money, the line between diy and commercial units is further blurred.
Diy as fun as it is, is getting close enough that I can get a commercial unit that does the same for slightly more cash.
For example to build a clone 1073 is about as much as a warm unit with mods.
It’s almost to the point where it’s not worth the expense at times.
For me the most expensive part is machining the chassis.

Any ideas on how to cut some of the costs?

The DIY 1073 with Greyhill switches and other high quality components will surely outlast the chinese cheapo units and perform better, if you do component matching etc.

That said, I have modded a few KT2A and these now sound on par with pricy outboard for a fraction of the cost. Don't think I will ever go to the trouble and build an opto compressor clone myself from scratch again.

I've often used chassis from obsolete digital equipment for DIY projects that I could get on the cheap. The most expensive part was still the front panel. ;-)

 

[cyrano]

Everything is getting more expensive. A pack of mushrooms used to be 1€ before Covid. Now it's 4€, I noticed in the supermarket.​

​

DIY was never much cheaper than readymade. Even when I made my first amp, over four decades ago, that cost me more than readymade. Of course, mine was better... ​

​

DIY is better, because you can include the features you need and leave the features you don't want. Less knobs is better, ask any audiophile.​

 

[JohnRoberts]

Don't confuse inflation with valid reasons for for cost increases. The western world has expanded the monetary supply massively and got away with it for decades because of rising productivity. Back then central bankers were targeting 2% inflation and having trouble reaching that high. I expect chat AI will help improve productivity in some white collar areas, but will not decrease the cost of groceries, fuel, or medicines. Another cost driver is a wrongheaded energy policy causing significant transportation/shipping cost increases. These cost increases have nothing to do with DIY popularity.
===
I have thought about this subject (DIY kits) for decades... maybe not this exact question but over a decade of talking with my kit company customers I had a pretty fair understanding of their motivations (mostly to save money). Even before starting my kit company I outfitted my personal test bench with Heathkit scope and sundry bench test equipment that I assembled myself to save money and I did. Note; Heathkit a hugely successful $M kit company was driven out of business by low cost modern manufacturing technology.

It is a popular theme in human nature to try to get something for nothing, if not free then cheap. The popularity of studio equipment clones is based on a dubious sense that the modern knock-off is somehow equivalent to the original classic legacy product. They rarely are but there is a lot of audiophoolery involved in marketing this stuff..

In many cases a cheap Chinese version could be 99% as good, if not actually better thanks to improvements in modern technology. One needs to inspect personal motivations. Pride of accomplishment is one, getting something as good for less money is another, as classic legacy SKUs are not very available any more.

JR

 

[jasonallenh]

Don't confuse inflation with valid reasons for for cost increases. The western world has expanded the monetary supply massively and got away with it for decades because of rising productivity. Back then central bankers were targeting 2% inflation and having trouble reaching that high. I expect chat AI will help improve productivity in some white collar areas, but will not decrease the cost of groceries, fuel, or medicines. Another cost driver is a wrongheaded energy policy causing significant transportation/shipping cost increases. These cost increases have nothing to do with DIY popularity.
===
I have thought about this subject (DIY kits) for decades... maybe not this exact question but over a decade of talking with my kit company customers I had a pretty fair understanding of their motivations (mostly to save money). Even before starting my kit company I outfitted my personal test bench with Heathkit scope and sundry bench test equipment that I assembled myself to save money and I did. Note; Heathkit a hugely successful $M kit company was driven out of business by low cost modern manufacturing technology.

It is a popular theme in human nature to try to get something for nothing, if not free then cheap. The popularity of studio equipment clones is based on a dubious sense that the modern knock-off is somehow equivalent to the original classic legacy product. They rarely are but there is a lot of audiophoolery involved in marketing this stuff..

In many cases a cheap Chinese version could be 99% as good, if not actually better thanks to improvements in modern technology. One needs to inspect personal motivations. Pride of accomplishment is one, getting something as good for less money is another, as classic legacy SKUs are not very available any more.

JR

Inflation is the result of prices being raised. That's really it. Plenty of (still!) profitable companies in no danger of going out of business raised prices because (flailing my arms wildly in the air) everyone else was doing it. They brag about it in earnings calls. Nixon had a solution for it......

 

[AnalogPackrat]

DIY can be customized/modded to suit the needs and desires of the builder. You can plan ahead and leave room for future upgrades, too. And since you built it in the first place it's more likely you'll be able to repair it if it breaks. Modern multi-layer PCBs with SMD and all controls mounted on boards are a nightmare to service, much less upgrade in many cases. Give me through-hole or turret boards with flying leads.

 

[pucho812]

Don't confuse inflation with valid reasons for for cost increases. The western world has expanded the monetary supply massively and got away with it for decades because of rising productivity. Back then central bankers were targeting 2% inflation and having trouble reaching that high. I expect chat AI will help improve productivity in some white collar areas, but will not decrease the cost of groceries, fuel, or medicines. Another cost driver is a wrongheaded energy policy causing significant transportation/shipping cost increases. These cost increases have nothing to do with DIY popularity.
===
I have thought about this subject (DIY kits) for decades... maybe not this exact question but over a decade of talking with my kit company customers I had a pretty fair understanding of their motivations (mostly to save money). Even before starting my kit company I outfitted my personal test bench with Heathkit scope and sundry bench test equipment that I assembled myself to save money and I did. Note; Heathkit a hugely successful $M kit company was driven out of business by low cost modern manufacturing technology.

It is a popular theme in human nature to try to get something for nothing, if not free then cheap. The popularity of studio equipment clones is based on a dubious sense that the modern knock-off is somehow equivalent to the original classic legacy product. They rarely are but there is a lot of audiophoolery involved in marketing this stuff..

In many cases a cheap Chinese version could be 99% as good, if not actually better thanks to improvements in modern technology. One needs to inspect personal motivations. Pride of accomplishment is one, getting something as good for less money is another, as classic legacy SKUs are not very available any more.

JR

Pride, sense of accomplishment, all valid reasons. My main point as mentioned was cost. Lately it seems cost for basic parts are through the roof. Cost of metalwork for example has sky rocketed. So, trying to cut some corners to make it less costly. Clearly a one off will be more expensive then bulk. But since I am only doing one offs the cost runs rampant.

 

[Gold]

You can also build stuff that isn’t available commercially like four channel units for lacquer cutting.

 

[living sounds]

I expect chat AI will help improve productivity in some white collar areas, but will not decrease the cost of groceries, fuel, or medicines.

Combine AI and robotics and the disruption goes far beyond a few white collar jobs. I don't see much future job opportunities in the strawberry picking or warehouse working businesses.

In China restaurant staff are actually replaced by robots, I was told by someone who visited there last month.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Ch...fs-Robots-and-AI-dish-out-4-menus-in-Shanghai

 

[sahib]

...... Cost of metalwork for example has sky rocketed. So, trying to cut some corners to make it less costly. Clearly a one off will be more expensive then bill. But since I am only doing one offs the cost runs rampant.

From my side as a boutique company, since covid the metalwork has gone up over 50% . This is for the repeat and quantity order (for one offs forget it). I can only pass a small portion of it to the customers, so the profit margin suffers.

The lead time is another issue. The shortest I am given is 8-12 weeks. Chinese on line companies offer 7 days turn around and at very competitive prices. I have resisted to keep the metalwork within UK but I am not sure how long I can hold the tide back. On the other hand, part of my old company used to be in modelmaking and prototyping with comprehensive in house facilities from machine shop to woodworking, and thermoforming to spraying and surface finishing. We could do things on the fly. I stopped it all when I hit 50 but now at 62 I am beginning to change my mind.

 

[SIXTYNINER]

As prices for everything continues to rise, as companies continue to offer product for less money, the line between diy and commercial units is further blurred.
Diy as fun as it is, is getting close enough that I can get a commercial unit that does the same for slightly more cash.
For example to build a clone 1073 is about as much as a warm unit with mods.
It’s almost to the point where it’s not worth the expense at times.
For me the most expensive part is machining the chassis.

Any ideas on how to cut some of the costs?

.... Chinese workers' salaries are rising,
probably "something" change soon ?

..........The popularity of studio equipment clones is based on a dubious sense that the modern knock-off is somehow equivalent to the original classic legacy product......

Don't forget the destruction of records market by mp3, Napster, & co.
and the quantity of money disappeared from circulation... ,
of which a substantial portion (from the sale of "modest" quantities of vinyl,
tape cassettes , and CDs)
allowed a large amount of not famous bands, musicians, little and medium producers, etc.. ,
which constitute the largest part of the market,
to be able to afford much of the equipment (large desks apart)
used by the famous one.

 

[SIXTYNINER]

Combine AI and robotics and the disruption goes far beyond a few white collar jobs. I don't see much future job opportunities in the strawberry picking or warehouse working businesses.

In China restaurant staff are actually replaced by robots, I was told by someone who visited there last month.

Good "luck" to those who go to eat there.....

 

[SIXTYNINER]

That said, I have modded a few KT2A and these now sound on par with pricy outboard for a fraction of the cost. Don't think I will ever go to the trouble and build an opto compressor clone myself from scratch again.

and less more if the start unit is got used.

 

[living sounds]

Good "luck" to those who go to eat there.....

I would be surprised if this didn't become the predominant MO of fast food restaurants in a few years. And I wouldn't have any concerns regarding the food quality - consistent and flawless execution is what machines are good at and there is no going-to-the-bathroom-without-washing-your-hands problem like with human employees...

 

[JohnRoberts]

Inflation is the result of prices being raised. That's really it. Plenty of (still!) profitable companies in no danger of going out of business raised prices because (flailing my arms wildly in the air) everyone else was doing it. They brag about it in earnings calls. Nixon had a solution for it......

Not exactly how it works....
===
President Nixon took us off the gold standard (was $40/oz), and drafted me, so screw him...

JR

PS; Robotic restaurants are already a thing... in the US this is driven by minimum wage laws. China is probably building them to sell here. Robots don't spit into our food... while they may drip some oil.

 

[pucho812]

You can also build stuff that isn’t available commercially like four channel units for lacquer cutting.

Yes. My point and focus was, is cost. The price is getting more and more expensive. What used to cost me a couple of dollars has more then doubled in the last couple of years.