diy mixer question
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Brian Roth
Well-known member
[quote author="drpat"][quote author="Brian Roth"]
How many program mixing buses (ie, is this only for creating a 40 x 2 for mixdown, or a 40 x 24 for tracking)?
Bri[/quote]
I don't think he'll be doing any tracking with this thing without mic pres!
I like the general idea. I've been looking for something like this for mixing also. I would consider leaving space for EQ's and pres for expandability sake. At least build a bay (or leave room) for inserting maybe 8 patchable EQ's and pres, that fits some standard N*E*V*E or A*P*I 500 modules.
If I were building that thing, I'd go for as simple a path as possible a-la A*P*I. You could do enough home brew 25*20 boards that are floating around here for a few hundred bucks in parts, and tons of man hours.
SSM214x i/o balancing will save you tons over transformers. Metering could be expensive. GSSL comp in the master section??? Just thinking out loud...
Good luck![/quote]
Well, I had to ask about the required busing. I know of more than a few studios that NEVER use the desk's preamps, instead relying upon their stash of outboards.
Re. metering...if only for a 2-bus, then you can spring for a pair of decent ANSI-spec mechanical meters, or perhaps some Dorrough digi-meters. OTOH, if each of the 40 "returns" requires metering...OUCH.
Assuming 40 P&G or TKD slidewire faders at $50 to $125 each, those alone can run upwards of $5000. Decent rotary pots for sends, etc can cost $5 or $10 apiece for quasi-standard (ie, NOT things like reverse audio taper, or duals in anything besides linear taper).
I've been through this drill eons ago:
http://www.brianroth.com/projects/m77/m77.html
and I can say is is a massive undertaking. The metal work was a total b!tch, even when using a decent fabricator. A 40 input desk will be a LONG mo-fo, and you best pay attention to the structural aspects. I learned about "desk sag" from that project, and interestingly enough, that also turned out to be a problem with the Neve (can I say that here?) 8068 desks as well..
But, best of luck with the project.
Bri
How many program mixing buses (ie, is this only for creating a 40 x 2 for mixdown, or a 40 x 24 for tracking)?
Bri[/quote]
I don't think he'll be doing any tracking with this thing without mic pres!
I like the general idea. I've been looking for something like this for mixing also. I would consider leaving space for EQ's and pres for expandability sake. At least build a bay (or leave room) for inserting maybe 8 patchable EQ's and pres, that fits some standard N*E*V*E or A*P*I 500 modules.
If I were building that thing, I'd go for as simple a path as possible a-la A*P*I. You could do enough home brew 25*20 boards that are floating around here for a few hundred bucks in parts, and tons of man hours.
SSM214x i/o balancing will save you tons over transformers. Metering could be expensive. GSSL comp in the master section??? Just thinking out loud...
Good luck![/quote]
Well, I had to ask about the required busing. I know of more than a few studios that NEVER use the desk's preamps, instead relying upon their stash of outboards.
Re. metering...if only for a 2-bus, then you can spring for a pair of decent ANSI-spec mechanical meters, or perhaps some Dorrough digi-meters. OTOH, if each of the 40 "returns" requires metering...OUCH.
Assuming 40 P&G or TKD slidewire faders at $50 to $125 each, those alone can run upwards of $5000. Decent rotary pots for sends, etc can cost $5 or $10 apiece for quasi-standard (ie, NOT things like reverse audio taper, or duals in anything besides linear taper).
I've been through this drill eons ago:
http://www.brianroth.com/projects/m77/m77.html
and I can say is is a massive undertaking. The metal work was a total b!tch, even when using a decent fabricator. A 40 input desk will be a LONG mo-fo, and you best pay attention to the structural aspects. I learned about "desk sag" from that project, and interestingly enough, that also turned out to be a problem with the Neve (can I say that here?) 8068 desks as well..
But, best of luck with the project.
Bri
radiance
Well-known member
WOW Brian, that must have been a really big DIY project.
:thumb:
:thumb:
dale116dot7
Well-known member
That's impressive, Brian. Hats off!
Building a big board may be easier than some projects, I suppose...
It's hard. It's expensive. Do you still want to do it? It can be done. Brian already proved that it can be done with his (impressive) board.
One thing I do before starting a project is basically make a bill of materials for the system. Every switch, every IC, every connector, every piece of metal, every screw, and every machining, soldering, connecting operation. You don't need capacitor values but totals of big and little electrolytics, big and little film capacitors, and same for resistors. One column for cost in $$$, another column for labour. This will force you to roughly plan the project well ahead of time prior to proceeding.
Building a big board may be easier than some projects, I suppose...
It's hard. It's expensive. Do you still want to do it? It can be done. Brian already proved that it can be done with his (impressive) board.
One thing I do before starting a project is basically make a bill of materials for the system. Every switch, every IC, every connector, every piece of metal, every screw, and every machining, soldering, connecting operation. You don't need capacitor values but totals of big and little electrolytics, big and little film capacitors, and same for resistors. One column for cost in $$$, another column for labour. This will force you to roughly plan the project well ahead of time prior to proceeding.
But Brian didn't say how much it cost! Also the project was a contracted build! Not a personal out of pocket project (I presume).
Its easy to encourage someone when its not your money. He states himself he is mainly broke.
I would take that to say that he doesn't have the $20K or more to consider this project.
I am building 2 LA2As and I started buying in February 2005! I am still not done. Money here is also tight! That is only 2 channels of LA2A! Not a complete high end ("wipe Neve") 40 channel line mixer!
We all would dream of making this project. I wanted to build my own 2 inch 16 track and also clone a Neve mixer once. I had access to a friend's machine shop and he was also into the dream. Except that as we started to count the parts, metal work (remember he owns a machine shop and knows metal work inside out) time etc. We would have been ...
1: Totally broke (I could have been OK with that)
2: Have no life as it owuld have taken our youth away from us. (can not take that)
3: No playing music until it was over! (realy, really could not stand for that).
So like Chris above I wish anyone undertaking this project good luck and don't let us discourage you. But expect to make the above sacrifices and more that I never even thought about.
Patrick means well but is wrong in assuming we are being negative (even though you can jump to that conclusion). If me and others like Chris are spending the time to write it is not to "discourage" you but to make you fully aware of the "facts" so that you can succeed if you do take on this project.
Believe me, I would love nothing more than for you and your friend to prove me wrong!
Anyway I see you have read all the posts so there is nothing else to add. I just wanted to make sure everyone got the right meaning.
Cheers
Jim
Its easy to encourage someone when its not your money. He states himself he is mainly broke.
I would take that to say that he doesn't have the $20K or more to consider this project.
I am building 2 LA2As and I started buying in February 2005! I am still not done. Money here is also tight! That is only 2 channels of LA2A! Not a complete high end ("wipe Neve") 40 channel line mixer!
We all would dream of making this project. I wanted to build my own 2 inch 16 track and also clone a Neve mixer once. I had access to a friend's machine shop and he was also into the dream. Except that as we started to count the parts, metal work (remember he owns a machine shop and knows metal work inside out) time etc. We would have been ...
1: Totally broke (I could have been OK with that)
2: Have no life as it owuld have taken our youth away from us. (can not take that)
3: No playing music until it was over! (realy, really could not stand for that).
So like Chris above I wish anyone undertaking this project good luck and don't let us discourage you. But expect to make the above sacrifices and more that I never even thought about.
Patrick means well but is wrong in assuming we are being negative (even though you can jump to that conclusion). If me and others like Chris are spending the time to write it is not to "discourage" you but to make you fully aware of the "facts" so that you can succeed if you do take on this project.
Believe me, I would love nothing more than for you and your friend to prove me wrong!
Anyway I see you have read all the posts so there is nothing else to add. I just wanted to make sure everyone got the right meaning.
Cheers
Jim
Brian Roth
Well-known member
[quote author="Bluzzi"]Oh yes I forgot....Brian....the board ....amazing! Not many like you left!
Jim[/quote]
Hehehe...I was young and ambitious..and came THAT close to biting off more than I could chew.
I certainly didn't do it all by myself. Once I had the PC boards laid out and debugged, a group of 2 or 3 folks stuffed the rest. I laid out the panels and worked with the metalwork vendor on the chassis plates that sat behind them. The panel "artwork" was done by a friend on "art board" using press-on letters and india ink (!), and that was then given to a silk screening shop. The teak wood shell (I *did* pick out the wood <g>) was done by a skilled cabinet builder, and the leather armrest was handled by a local furniture builder.
All of the metal work was done by 2 or 3 guys at a local shoppe that had experience with aircraft and other high-end electronics fab work.
So, I certainly can't claim I did all the work. Design, supervision, and yes...more than a lot of soldering!
Bri
Jim[/quote]
Hehehe...I was young and ambitious..and came THAT close to biting off more than I could chew.
I certainly didn't do it all by myself. Once I had the PC boards laid out and debugged, a group of 2 or 3 folks stuffed the rest. I laid out the panels and worked with the metalwork vendor on the chassis plates that sat behind them. The panel "artwork" was done by a friend on "art board" using press-on letters and india ink (!), and that was then given to a silk screening shop. The teak wood shell (I *did* pick out the wood <g>) was done by a skilled cabinet builder, and the leather armrest was handled by a local furniture builder.
All of the metal work was done by 2 or 3 guys at a local shoppe that had experience with aircraft and other high-end electronics fab work.
So, I certainly can't claim I did all the work. Design, supervision, and yes...more than a lot of soldering!
Bri
anything is surely possible.
While it takes a lifetime of knowledge on one hand to design something good, it also only takes a pencil and piece of paper, speaking literally. If the person you are contracting doesnt have the experience actually manufactruring stuff, it can be a big suprise to the both of you what kind of drama it is to build the thing. If on the other hand the guy builds stuff, perhaps its not a big deal at all. Either way, multiply the time he quotes you by four and then be suprised when it gets delivered early...
For some reference, I have been building an 8x2 line mixer with no features, no design no nothing using api amps and Ive been working on it for at least 2 years now. Sure, it doesnt take 2 years to build anything like that, but it took months and months of thinking about simple stuff like the front panel layout before I drilled a hole. Now that I finsihed wiring it, I see a lot of things I woudl have done differently. The next mixer I build will probably be more complicated and I'll get through it in 1/4 the time, but the learning curve was brutal for me and Ive racked tons of stuff prior to this.
Another thing to consider with the contractor is wether or not he is working on your project exclusively full time 5 days a week or if he is spreading it out with his regular work load. There are a small handfull of people Id hire to do such a thing if they didnt take any other work. The info you posted cretainly doesnt scream "its impossible" but it all comes down to the person doing the work and what he's capable of doing.
If you are in australia, look up joe malone, that guy is the super genius of things sounding good coming out of the speakers. If you just took a block for an api 1604 and built it up but used the JLM 99V opamp it would likely slay pretty much anything out there.
the other thing to consider with a custom console is a)it aint worth anything used and b)none of your clients will know what it is and very few of them are likely to be impressed with the fact that it is custom. Yes, we as audio engineers can tell the difference, but advertising agency guy or record label guy most often wants what they heard someone say was good, product recognition goes a stupid long way in audio where it shouldnt. Look at neve for instance, their cool souding years vs. not so cool sounding is about a 1:20 ratio...
dave
While it takes a lifetime of knowledge on one hand to design something good, it also only takes a pencil and piece of paper, speaking literally. If the person you are contracting doesnt have the experience actually manufactruring stuff, it can be a big suprise to the both of you what kind of drama it is to build the thing. If on the other hand the guy builds stuff, perhaps its not a big deal at all. Either way, multiply the time he quotes you by four and then be suprised when it gets delivered early...
For some reference, I have been building an 8x2 line mixer with no features, no design no nothing using api amps and Ive been working on it for at least 2 years now. Sure, it doesnt take 2 years to build anything like that, but it took months and months of thinking about simple stuff like the front panel layout before I drilled a hole. Now that I finsihed wiring it, I see a lot of things I woudl have done differently. The next mixer I build will probably be more complicated and I'll get through it in 1/4 the time, but the learning curve was brutal for me and Ive racked tons of stuff prior to this.
Another thing to consider with the contractor is wether or not he is working on your project exclusively full time 5 days a week or if he is spreading it out with his regular work load. There are a small handfull of people Id hire to do such a thing if they didnt take any other work. The info you posted cretainly doesnt scream "its impossible" but it all comes down to the person doing the work and what he's capable of doing.
If you are in australia, look up joe malone, that guy is the super genius of things sounding good coming out of the speakers. If you just took a block for an api 1604 and built it up but used the JLM 99V opamp it would likely slay pretty much anything out there.
the other thing to consider with a custom console is a)it aint worth anything used and b)none of your clients will know what it is and very few of them are likely to be impressed with the fact that it is custom. Yes, we as audio engineers can tell the difference, but advertising agency guy or record label guy most often wants what they heard someone say was good, product recognition goes a stupid long way in audio where it shouldnt. Look at neve for instance, their cool souding years vs. not so cool sounding is about a 1:20 ratio...
dave
