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SaMpLeGoD

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Joined
Jul 19, 2007
Messages
441
Location
Portugal
Hello all, hope everybody's ok around here ;) been away a little bit, but I'm here again.
I have a friend that build a fender AB763 based, one channel 2x 6L6GC, with a different tremolo (I think 6G16 Vibroverb tremolo).
All seems to be ok, but when I get the B+ on with the standby switch... the tubes start to make a electrical noise and there's somo lightnings bettween the plate and the glass... strange...
I took of the tubes, and when tried to measure what's going on on pin3 of the 6L6... the amp burn out my multimeter :(
It is real strange since I was measuring from ground to B+ and my multimeter is supposed to go till 700VDC... don't nknow, the multimeter is dead.
Any clue about what is happening?
Thanks

Ed
 
Seems in stanby mode the plate voltages should be off , only heaters should be on.

one or more 6L6 might be shorted , evidenced by scary arcing inside the tube and tesla coil arc sounds - not good for output tube life but great for stage show lighting effects.

What color are the output tubes when stanby is off ?, not over voltaged hopefully ( deep lava colored red glow ).
Modern tubes can go as high as 450V, vintage tubes cannot always handle this. eventual outcome suto nuclear like meltdown.

What is the plate voltage winding on the power transformer secondary rated at , ex: 500VCT - 900VCT ? Do not put your fingers near this or you will quickly do a backwards moon walk dance move better than Micheal Jackson could ever do.

Maybe your meter is fused  for voltage, check to see if a fuse was blown in the meter , cheaper meters are not usually fused, in which case the meter is kentucky fried., will that be crispy or original recipe ?
 
electrochronic said:
Seems in stanby mode the plate voltages should be off , only heaters should be on.

one or more 6L6 might be shorted , evidenced by scary arcing inside the tube and tesla coil arc sounds - not good for output tube life but great for stage show lighting effects.

What color are the output tubes when stanby is off ?, not over voltaged hopefully ( deep lava colored red glow ).
Modern tubes can go as high as 450V, vintage tubes cannot always handle this. eventual outcome suto nuclear like meltdown.

What is the plate voltage winding on the power transformer secondary rated at , ex: 500VCT - 900VCT ? Do not put your fingers near this or you will quickly do a backwards moon walk dance move better than Micheal Jackson could ever do.

Maybe your meter is fused  for voltage, check to see if a fuse was blown in the meter , cheaper meters are not usually fused, in which case the meter is kentucky fried., will that be crispy or original recipe ?

Hello! yes the meter is kentucky fried, black inside :) hehehe
I think I solved the problem... the primary of the OT measure 150ohm... should be 5.6k CT... the primary if shorted :(
I think it needs a new OT.... Thanks anyways...

Ed
 
> the primary of the OT measure 150ohm... should be 5.6k CT... the primary if shorted

That's normal when you measure with DC (plain ohm-meter).

The "impedance" happens at Audio, and is the reflected impedance of the secondary.

What you measured is Winding Resistance. This is bad. But unavoidable (until we get cheap superconductors). In practice we try to make it much less than audio impedance. Which is what you have.

Check some known-good OTs.

> the amp burn out my multimeter

Ohms, Amperes, or Volts?

Something is wrong, but you have not proved it is the OT. 
 
Hopefully the primary OT is fused , thats how I build mine , if the primary winding is shorting then fuse will blow, or if you use a light bulb in line with fuse , then it will eluminate so you can save on blowing fuses $$

A shorted primary may also have a electical burning oder to it.

If primary is shorted your secondary voltages will be very different you can put a low voltage incandescent on the 6V secondary to see if it lights up. Sometimes secondary will go dead if primary is bad.

tests above  can be in the absence of a working meter tester , make sure chassis has a safety ground when running tests , you don't want to be the ground.
 
Yeah ... you are all right, I measured the DC resistance, thought wrong, because I did not realize that referred impedance. So I can't guarantee that the OT is broken anymore ... and the more certain it is not be. Any idea to track down this problem?
Thanks a lot!
 
since this is a diy build and even if it wasn't there is always the possibility that one, something is wired in correctly and two, you may have a wrong value component in there.  may need to go over things with fine tooth comb.  Most tube amps tend to have the same things happen.  So here is a short, simple guide to trouble shooting amps.

Part 1:
1)Remove ALL tubes from the amp.
2)Install new fuses.
3)Turn amp power on, and standby on.
4)Turn off and check fuses.
5)Install rectifier tube.
6)Turn amp power on, and standby on.
7)Observe rectifier for signs of arcing.
8)Turn off and check fuses.
9)Install power tubes.
10)Turn amp power on, and standby on.
11)Observe rectifier and power tubes for arcing or red plating for about 30 to 45s.
Arcing will most likely occur immediately, but red plating may take a few seconds.
12)Turn off and check fuses.
13)Install preamp tubes.
14)Turn amp power on, and standby on.
15)Test amp for sound or noise.
16)Remove each preamp tube one at a time and replace with a known good tube.
If amp works again or noise goes away, mark or discard problem tube and continuing rocking and/or rolling.
If there is still no sound or the problem did not go away, then it's down to either a wrong part value, wiring connected to the wrong place, or a dead part.


Now as for the arching itself
The B+ in the amp has found some path that cannot stand the high voltages and discharges suddenly through that path. The arc current is high, but cannot be sustained by the power supply, so the voltage drops a little, the arc extinguishes, and it takes some time for the power supply voltage to build back up to where the arc will start again.

arcing is often associated with the time when you flip the standby switch. In standby, the current drain from the power supply is less, so the voltage rises, causing more voltage stress. When the standby switch is thrown, the higher-than-normal voltage can break over things that stand the normal stress of operating voltage.

Tubes
The tubes themselves will sometimes develop internal, intermittent arcs. Do some tube swapping. Start at the front (preamp) end of the amp and pull a tube, listen, pull a tube, listen. When you find one where pulling it makes the popping stop and a new tube makes it quit completely, you're done.
Arcing power tube socket
The B+ may be arcing across the surfaces of the output tube sockets themselves. This is often the case when an amplifier has a lot of dust and dirt inside it. In some cases, the arc can be started by a few seconds of playing without a load on the amp, which causes large spikes on the plates of the output tubes. Contamination of the tube socket surface can let an arc get started, and the arc itself burns the surface of a plastic tube socket body. This leaves a carbon residue in the path of the arc, burned remains of the trail of the arc; the carbon residue is itself somewhat conductive, so in the future, there is a ready made path for the next arc. You have to replace the socket if this is the case.

Intermittent switch
A switch, often the standby switch, can develop internal arcs
Intermittent breakdown of coupling cap or a popping resistor
Sometimes a signal coupling capacitor just can't take it anymore, and it starts breaking down intermittently. Resistors, particularly those delightful, brown sound carbon composition ones, sometimes develop internal pops. Proceed as for tubes. In this case, a new replacement tube will NOT make the noise quit permanently, and you have to figure out which component is causing it.
Intermittent breakdown of output transformer or choke
 
The filter choke,
if your amp has one, and output transformer are connected to the highest voltages in the amp. If they are old (can you say "vintage"? I thought you could) and if they get hot, the insulation on the wires inside can start being intermittent. Internal shorts that clear will cause popping. Shorts that don't clear will pop a fuse, usually. Sometimes it'll just cause smoke.
broken resistor or capacitor or R/C lead/ wire
This is one where the problem is not caused from the B+ breaking down insulation. Mechanical damage can break a part and leave enough pressure on the pieces so it mostly makes contact and kind of functions. Vibration will cause it to open momentarily, causing a pop.
Heat from resistor or output tube melting solder
   
This is a fun one. Some of the power supply dropping resistors, output tube cathode biasing resistors or the connections on the output tube sockets themselves get so hot that they melt the solder that attaches the leads. Even more interesting is when they just soften it so it gets grainy and any vibration (speakers, anyone?) makes a cold, grainy solder joint. This bad joint can pop and arc, sputter, hiss, rectify AM radio, do lots of nead stuff. Once you find the bad joint, you'll also have to find out why it was so hot.

You can sometimes leave the amplifier turned on and turn out or dim the lights in your workroom, and see arcing happining. On pops that happen when the amplifier is touched or jarred, you can (gently, now) tap the chassis with a rubber hammer or wooden stick, being careful not to break anything or touch the amplifier with your hands as you do this. This often makes a mechanically-motivated arc happen, and you can see where it is, and deal with it.
 
Hi Everyone,
thanks so much for your help Pucho, it was invaluable in solving the arching problem, great post!

I had some part of the circuit that was connect to the wrong place, I found the problem and corrected it.
The arching is gone now.

Although I'm having dificulties with another problem, and I have one less multimeter again (another one blew up while turning the amp on again while measuring the plate voltage).
The problem now resides in that the HT secondary of the power transformer Im using has no Bias tap or center tap, and the circuit schematic needs a Bias tap to work properly , I think thats the main cause of the blown multimeters.
The transformer Im using was from a Fender clone amplifier, so I know it works on this type of circuit,
I attached the schematic of this transformer to the message. I used its secondary of 55v-0V-55V center tap to connect the bias tap, but that didnt work , and the multimeter was blown.

I will attach the schematic of the amplifier circuit in the next message, can please someone let me know how could I get a Bias tap in the Transformer I have?
Do I need a virtual Bias tap or virtual center tap?
How can I do that?

Thank you so much,
Best regards
 

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  • Power Transformer Without Center Tap.JPG
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Here is the schematic of the amplifier in question,
I dont know where to connect that Bias range 470r resistor in the Power transfer Im using.

Thanks
 

Attachments

  • Tube Amplifier Circuit - with Bias Tap.JPG
    Tube Amplifier Circuit - with Bias Tap.JPG
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You can use the 0-55 winding into a full wave bridge, this will give -77VDC. A smoothing cap at this point (47-100uF) is a good idea.

You may as well bypass the diode after the 470R since you have already got your negative supply, you might want to tinker the value of the 470R (or remove that too) to get the best range on the bias pot (you want around -58 volts at the grids, I think?).

And, Pucho's post was an absolute corker!

 
> The transformer Im using

450V AC will rectify into 636V DC.

I don't know what kind of "Fender clone" uses 600+ Volts.

My experiences with 600V amps were very frightening. And costly. Most meters are NOT safe at this voltage. I re-built a tube-voltmeter several times. When capacitors are not fully formed, 600++V makes big smoke-clouds. When a minor wiring error causes supersonic oscillation you can get BIG voltage swings around plates or rapid melt-down of costly tubes.

Also 6L6GC is not rated for over 500V, though many guitar-amp designs cheat-up considerably. The plate-stuff will stand it (6L6GC is really a hi-volt TV tube but without the hi-volt top-cap), the base and socket are usually the arc-spots.

I know you "need" to use this power transformer, but I advise against it.
 
MagnetoSound said:
PRR said:
450V AC will rectify into 636V DC.

I don't know what kind of "Fender clone" uses 600+ Volts.

Ha! Totally missed that. :eek:

Well, I totaly agree with you PRR and Magneto, thanks for the advise... and I think I have no caps larger that 600V in the circuit... the filter caps are all 500V rated maximum for sure.

As I said I just helping a friend with this, and the Power Transformer came from a Amp (Roland Bolt 60) that has the same supply schematic than a Fender whatever... don't know the model... And the idea is use this supply to feed a Princeton clone... but...

I think the best way to go is send this trafo to a guy to rewire with new specs like: 3.15v - 0 - 3.15v, 350v - 0 - 350v with a 40V tap... should this specs work?
Thanks

Ed
 
> why rewire and waste a good transformer

He's in Portugal. Some countries have local re-winding services, but don't have favorable import policies. In Brazil the import tax doubles the cost of a transformer, but every large town has a shop that re-winds motors and transformers.

> the Power Transformer came from a Amp (Roland Bolt 60) that has the same supply schematic than a Fender whatever...
> the idea is use this supply to feed a Princeton clone...


The Bolt 60 is a lot more than a Princeton; and being mostly FETs not tubes, is not a lot like any Fender I know.

But Bolt 60 *is* a two-6L6 Tube output stage.

Schematic shows 490V DC out of the power supply, less than 630V of total supply cap-rating.

http://bolt60.no.sapo.pt/documents/bolt60/Bolt60%20-%20Schematic.jpg

Use that exact power supply to get your HV. (Including the Bias-supply, which Roland did as one side of the low-volt supply to the FETs.) Use 6L6 EL34 6550 power bottles. Should be no problem powering a Princeton-like tube preamp too.
 
Hi All, and thanks for helping me and samplegod in this project!

The amplifier is mine and is not a princeton clone, its a Pro Reverb clone.
The circuit is the Hoffman AB763 retake on the Fender Classic circuit.

Actually the Power amp on the Roland Bolt 60 is actually the same circuit as the Fender AB763 type Amps, the Power supply is a bit different, but in the end the same voltages are reaching the circuit.

Its jus that we have To adapt the hoffman AB763 circuit To use the Bolt 60 Power transformer, sometimes we just dont know how, but with your help we are reaching there.

Thanks
 
Is this schematic in the attachment correct?? are the filter caps in the wrong position? It's suposed to connect to the OT center tap... so positive voltage... can you guys exlain please... I'm not getting what's going on :(

Thanks
 

Attachments

  • PSU Detail.JPG
    PSU Detail.JPG
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