Free $200 repair, or $200 free repair...

[joaquins]

My cousin gave me the LED TV he had in the bathroom for those long sessions, after about 2 years in service it stop turning on. He already gave that to a technician who said the repair would be about $200 because it had 2 broken boards which needed to be replaced.

I brought it to home, smoke test, nothing, few flashes from the standby light and nothing else, not responding to remote or inboards controls. Took it apart, measured the PS without and with load, looked ok, all rails within specs. Connected everything again, the TV is working, not responding to controls. Just static on the screen, much more than before. The small PCB with the tactile switches and the IR receiver had something strange, after taking it out I saw the IR sensor quite bodged in place, few traces lifted, baaad soldering and few shorted wires from the bodging. Scrapped the shorted wires out and the TV is working, though the remote control is not working.

Is the only visit the TV had to a service, so he not only tried to charge $200 for a bad connection but he managed to brake something else!

I should look for the small board with the receiver, would be the easiest way, not easy to put a new IR sensor when the traces to an 0201 resistor is gone but I could try. Even if the remote never works again, seriously, $200???

JS

 

[Seeker]

I had a similar experience, my neighbor had a tv he took to a repair shop... They told him it needed a new psu board, wich would be over 200 + installation.  It's a decent tv, but older and not really worth the investment, so he asked me to look at it.  I changed out one very obviously blown capacitor,  and it works flawlessly...  Total cost of $1.25, and I was even able to get it at my local surplus shop the same day. 
It's sad, but there are too many people who's job it is to fix things, that can't actually fix things!

 

[JohnRoberts]

I had a similar experience, my neighbor had a tv he took to a repair shop... They told him it needed a new psu board, wich would be over 200 + installation.  It's a decent tv, but older and not really worth the investment, so he asked me to look at it.  I changed out one very obviously blown capacitor,  and it works flawlessly...  Total cost of $1.25, and I was even able to get it at my local surplus shop the same day. 
It's sad, but there are too many people who's job it is to fix things, that can't actually fix things!

I've performed similar repairs and the parts cost is usually pennies, but the hard part is knowing what part to replace.

For an object lesson, the control board on my new Whirlpool dishwasher almost immediately started losing it's pretty blue LED status indicators.  The washer still worked but without 2 of the several status LEDs working.

Before I even called Whirlpool, I removed the control board myself and checked for the obvious suspects, bad solder connections. I touched up a few joints but my first pass did not fix it, and later a second LED stopped working. This week was 2 months since my service request and first visit from a repair guy to confirm and order a replacement board.  Since I was not getting a straight answer from either the local service guy or Whirlpool about when the replacement board would show up, I decided to dig a little deeper into the fault.

I had the board on my bench for about an hour and traced out all the LED connections. The LEDs are driven directly by the microprocessor in a 4x4 matix. Looks like 50 ohm current limit R's but i haven't figured out the supply voltage. My guess is 3.3V while the LEDs run pretty bright.

Long story short(er) my phone rings while I have the board on my bench. The local repair guy gives me a call, he just received the replacement control board.  So I say come on over, the washer is already apart. He was cool with me trying to fix it.

The company did not even want the old board back. While surely they could fix them cheaply after they have a pile of them, they weren't even interested in more handling. I would estimate the board cost them at least $20.00 ,,, 4 relays, a micro and many discrete parts. Thru hole mixed with SMD.  But their cost analysis is cheaper to just throw away the old PCB.  For them the labor is the dominant expense.

JR

PS after tracing out the PCB my current theory is that there was a bad batch of blue LEDs, or they are over driving them (they get pretty bright). When measuring them in circuit with diode scale of my VOM I saw some weird readings but there can always be interactions in circuit. I may unsolder a few to confirm my bad LED theory but at this point it is academic, until the new control board fails.

PPS I was surprised to see all the relays used on the board, presumably to control pump, and water valves, and heater.  Thyristors should be cheaper simple switches, but relays should be more robust switching inductive loads in the wild.

 

[joaquins]

Here there was no component to replace, I don't know the status of the IR sensor before first tech visit but I just scrapped some short solder with a screwdriver and it started to work, I should see if replacing the IR sensor helps but I doubt I'd be able to since the board is in bad shape and I don't see my self fighting against bodged wires in 0201 resistors...

I know they always replace the boards and call it a day, but sometimes could be easier and faster to fix it, with an hot air station and the component replacement this would be a simple task, bad thing someone already tried to fix this and broke the traces! Wired component to go wrong the IR sensor I guess.

JS

 

[JohnRoberts]

At the risk of stating the obvious the repair men who fix typical appliances do not understand the  technology beyond swapping out complete modules to make it work....  While i was talking to the service guy who fixed my dishwasher he just tilted his head like a puppy who doesn't understand when I tried to discuss the actual fault.

Component level repairs are just too expensive to perform in the field.  If it took them 2 months to get me a new PCB, returning my broken PCB and repairing that in Mexico where it was assembled would have left me without a working washer for even longer.

JR

 

[PRR]

> surprised to see all the relays

My old furnace had a 24V relay to run the pump/spark, and a delay-relay to shut-down if no flame for a minute. (House fan was a simple 120 deg 120V thermostat in the chamber.) All wire-nutted together.

The new one is a PC motherboard (almost) with a lot of those generic little relays.

Microwave oven also has several relays.

I think these relays may be VERY cheap in truckloads.

Unlike our kitchen appliances, the furnace can drive "strange loads". There's connections for humidifier and electric air filter. I wired a 120V fan to the humidifier terminals (duct booster). It is not really clear what the rating is on these feeds, but my fan is <37W so I am not worried. (I even run a 60W incandescent in series to reduce the whine.)

FYI:
'Humidifier' comes on with flame-on, stops at flame-off
'Air-filter' comes on with blower-on, stops at blower-off

I guess the humidifier may need a start-up time, and should finish dribbling before the blower stops.

(My duct-booster logically runs with the main blower, but running it early pulls cellar-cool air out of the main trunk into an upstairs closet so when the main blower comes on it is not pouring such cold air.)

Oh-- the old oil-burner ran the main blower only when the fire-pot was hot. This new job simply uses timers. The post-burn time is user (installer) selectable, but the start-up time is fixed (and IMHO too short, though I agree this is better than burning-up fire-tubes in still air).

We all know that the last compelling use for photo-resistors was flame-detectors (simple and high output). The new job has a stick in the fire and measures the leakage current, which is just a couple micro-Amps, so there is significant analog electronic gain in the guts.

 

[joaquins]

At the risk of stating the obvious the repair men who fix typical appliances do not understand the  technology beyond swapping out complete modules to make it work....  While i was talking to the service guy who fixed my dishwasher he just tilted his head like a puppy who doesn't understand when I tried to discuss the actual fault.

Component level repairs are just too expensive to perform in the field.  If it took them 2 months to get me a new PCB, returning my broken PCB and repairing that in Mexico where it was assembled would have left me without a working washer for even longer.

JR

I guess the problem is people who understand and can fix the actual fault may get better pay for designing audio mixers or industrial automation, but come on, this guy tried to replace the IR sensor and lifted a few traces and left them touching each other. Ok, he did detected the fault but better if he just tried to replace the board, I got it! LOL

A 15yo hobbyist could make that better, but they are not interested. I think if I could still charge $200 for a fix that cost me pennies and took me under an hour as this case I'd be willing to do it. I could charge half that and still wouldn't be so bad, too bad government would take half that but those are the rules here... Maybe I start to fix this kind of things till I finish with the university, who knows.

JS

 

[sodderboy]

I get the extended warranty for any digital appliance or gadget.  In aggregate it has been good practice.  5 years for a tv is usually $200 and I have gotten two replacement tv's so far for the cost of the warranty.  When the display gets lines through it, there is not much you can do.  Cordless phone is usually $10 and includes one free battery change.  $100 for a digital cooker warranty has paid for itself four times over.  Even a dehumidifier has to be digital these days, so I got the  $25 extended warranty and a surge suppressor.
"VCR repair" shops are notorious for the $$$ single cap in the switching supply replacement.  Lotta overhead with a storefront.
Mike

 

[JohnRoberts]

I get the extended warranty for any digital appliance or gadget.  In aggregate it has been good practice.  5 years for a tv is usually $200 and I have gotten two replacement tv's so far for the cost of the warranty.  When the display gets lines through it, there is not much you can do.  Cordless phone is usually $10 and includes one free battery change.  $100 for a digital cooker warranty has paid for itself four times over.  Even a dehumidifier has to be digital these days, so I got the  $25 extended warranty and a surge suppressor.
"VCR repair" shops are notorious for the $$$ single cap in the switching supply replacement.  Lotta overhead with a storefront.
Mike

Interesting.. I have the exact opposite opinion about extended warranties. In my judgement they are a very profitable add-on sale for merchants. If they are that profitable for them it follows that consumers are over-paying for the benefit. 

Most failures occur while the product is relatively new so covered by even short warranty periods.

YMMV...

JR

 

[joaquins]

Here the official warranty service are pretty bad anyway,
  I don't want to name the brand but is used to be one of the top electronics measurement equipment out there, then the measurement division changed the name two times (rings a bell?) I send them a notebook because the display backlight was death, about two month laters they contacted me to send it back, they couldn't even accommodate a time for deliver, in the next week between 8 and 17 hs, and you have to be there! What kind of life you have to think this is possible?
  For the brand with a bitten fruit used to be good, they told you in 3 days for changing a HD or something and they call you back in 2 days for pickup or delivery, I lived much closer (they have a bunch service points in Buenos Aires I lived back then, HP only one... ups, I named it) Now the service includes 7 to 10 days of delay to be assigned to a technician, then he looks at it, few days later he take it to his desk, about a month later you hear from them... It used to be 3 f***ng days just month before I have that experience the first time!
  You can't wait that for your working computer, for a TV or a iPod I get it, live without it for a few weeks...
  Right now I'm waiting for a keyboard replacement but this is international, probably with shipping and all it could be faster. Still you always have a spare keyboard, but not a spare macbook pro I guess.

  About extended warranties, here, if you look hard enough it ends up being free, usually they are associated with credit card plans, 18 month, no interest but needs to buy the extended warranty which ends up  being less than the interest. or something like that, for a big LED TV or that kind of things is usually the case. Still 3 years shouldn't be the serviceable life of most things, having extended warranty only ensures you to have it for that period. I did got the applecare for my last macbook and it did pay off, I changed the HD, DVD RW, battery, bezel, keyboard and trackpad a few times, charger... Not much still from the original one.

JS

 

[JohnRoberts]

> surprised to see all the relays

My old furnace had a 24V relay to run the pump/spark, and a delay-relay to shut-down if no flame for a minute. (House fan was a simple 120 deg 120V thermostat in the chamber.) All wire-nutted together.

The new one is a PC motherboard (almost) with a lot of those generic little relays.

Microwave oven also has several relays.

I think these relays may be VERY cheap in truckloads.

Perhaps.. relays are certainly a mature technology.. but in small quantity onsey-twosey... I just paid $15 each for a couple relays, for a side project I am working on, while triacs capable of switching the same power were less than $2,,,

While the 3 pole double throw relay is not exactly apples to apples with a simple triac.

JR

 

[ArnauTS]

A friend of mine came with his canon 5d camera from a trip and the camera got dirty and some functions where not working.
Canon oficial service took a "look" (i think they didn't even opened the camera) and they told him that the repair would cost 1500€ replacing motherboard pcb,switches.. almost the entire camera so i had a look and i thought that cleaning  the camera might be a good idea so after 2 hours the camera was clean and all is working properly. 0€.

Not nice all these big companies replacing all de pcb's just because a component it's dead or the board it's dirty.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Keeping with the theme of low cost repairs, just this week I fixed an amp where the primary cost was my time.

I don't know if I shared before the anecdote about the amp driving my rear two speakers for my TV sound system, blowing a fuse... The first time it blew several weeks ago I didn't have a replacement fuse handy, so rigged up one from a single stand of copper wire tack soldered across the blown fuse (don't try this at home kids). Ignoring that it was now about a 10A fuse, I swapped the DIY fuse into one of the amps that didn't blow and put a correct size fuse from the good amp in the suspect amp...  The amps worked fine until the correct fuses arrived, and since then for several weeks more, until this week when the same amp popped another fuse, and the replacement fuse too.  Since it was after beer o'clock, I left it unplugged until the next day.

I opened up the amp and there was nothing obvious, the fuse had prevented any parts from releasing smoke. I disconnected the header from the transformer to the single PCB and the fuse held, but this did not remotely zero in on the problem.  :

I removed the PCB and found some smutz on the bottom, and one questionable solder connection but no smoking gun yet... Flipping it back over and looking more closely at the component side I saw a bare wire lead at an odd angle...  grabbing it with my tweezers I pulled on it and removed a 3/4" long bare wire lead that was wedged under some parts on the top of the PCB and even had some glyptol (glue) on it from being next to the transformer header.  The wire lead was lying across some bare jumpers in the vicinity of the transformer header so shorting across the transformer secondary winding would easily explain the fuses blowing.

That was relatively easy to fix but still counts as a repair, and the amp is back in service performing fine.  8)

So don't ignore the obvious...if something looks wrong maybe it is...

JR

PS: I probably told this story before but I once repaired a huge generator/welder where a box of nails had fallen down into the flywheel area when it was running a broke a wire on the magneto...    Of course they didn't tell me about the nails until I found some behind the flywheel. It took me about a day troubleshooting around the control electronics to trace the problem back to the magneto on the opposite end of the machine, that was supplying power to the control electronics PCB.

 

[joaquins]

  Yeah, shameful owners is usually a big problem when fixing stuff.. Would be much easier with a owners frankness policy, like "if I find you didn't tell me exactly what it happened I charge you 50% over."

  I was ashamed once, as I pick up my mom's pc from the tech and he told me it looked like it had some gue inside (dulce de leche, like milk jam, good stuff BTW), after a long interrogatory I got a confession, my sister had shared her coffee with the PC as any of them was having a good morning. An instant phone call with me would probably increase the survivor expectancy of the thing, after visiting quite a few different technicians the damn thing had a long and complicated life with random failures but reasonable functional. A desktop i5 solved the problem for good a year ago, poor old thing, it was time.

JS

 

[Whoops]

My friend works in a Music Instruments Store.

He had an Electro Harmonix pedal there for ages  that had a paper from a local audio repair company saying "Not possible to Repair". The pedal new costs 300€, it was in mint cosmetic condition, the owner never picked it up from the store after the "Unrepairable" news.

My friend took the pedal, we opened it  and the small toroid transformer inside was visibly burn.

Contacted Electro Harmonix to buy a replacement transformer, received an email saying they don't have a repair service and they dont sell any replacement parts for their products. So basically they dont care.

Ordered a transformer from farnell for 10 euros, installed it in 3 minutes, the pedal is working fine.

Sometimes "Not Possible to Repair" for some people is "Repaired in 3 minutes by others"

 

[joaquins]

...
Sometimes "Not Possible to Repair" for some people is "Repaired in 3 minutes by others"

  Usually big companies don't do diagnose and repair for their costumers. Make them buy a new one. In most cases is a board replacement or nothing, very common TV PS repair, swap a board for another $100 or whatever instead of $5 in caps and $15 for the tech, it's a pretty classic one.

  This is not always true, Supposedly Gigabyte (motherboards and other computery stuff) say they do try to fix your stuff, out of warranty for very little cost, not much more than parts and shipping I guess, I never needed to use that service (yet, hope it keeps that way) but I guess they should at least try recapping the thing.

JS

 

[Whoops]

  Usually big companies don't do diagnose and repair for their costumers. Make them buy a new one. In most cases is a board replacement or nothing, very common TV PS repair, swap a board for another $100 or whatever instead of $5 in caps and $15 for the tech, it's a pretty classic one.

Well, in this case the burned transformer was made by Electro Harmonix themselves, of course it was outsourced but had their logo and was produced for them, they dont sell it , and they dont sell any replacement part at all for their products, not even a complete board like in the TV bussiness

Thats not the same philosophy as other competitors, Jim Dunlop, Roland/Boss and Yamaha all of them sell replacement parts for the current products.

Shame on Electro Harmonix, to be honest I even go to the point of telling that in my opinion that should be illegal.

And here is the reason why:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDSWGV3jGek

 

[joaquins]

Well, in this case the burned transformer was made by Electro Harmonix themselves, of course it was outsourced but had their logo and was produced for them, they dont sell it , and they dont sell any replacement part at all for their products, not even a complete board like in the TV bussiness

Thats not the same philosophy as other competitors, Jim Dunlop, Roland/Boss and Yamaha all of them sell replacement parts for the current products.

Shame on Electro Harmonix, to be honest I even go to the point of telling that in my opinion that should be illegal.

And here is the reason why:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDSWGV3jGek

  I agree with you, it isn't cool. But companies doesn't try to be cool, they try to make money, if they make more money not selling the replacements than selling them they won't sell them. Unless, of course, the fines of doing so makes that cheaper to start selling parts. Smaller companies usually have more ethical care, even at some economical cost. The bigger the company the further away the guy making the call is from the client, the less it cares. That's not always true, but there is a tendency for that, for instance, in my personal experience  had a really good tech support, but it's much worse since some point in 2012. You can make your own conclusions of why that happened, I do suspect of something  :-\

JS

 

[Whoops]

We all know why that happens and the basics of how the economy works is western countries.
Consume more, Consume bigger, consume what you don't need, make yourself fat, once once throw away and buy again.
It's based on a wrong assumption that "Profits have to be crescent to the infinity" and the most pressure to follow that is from the shareholders and not actually the people that are running the company.

That's wrong and unsustainable and has to change. Repairs should be possible to make, and Repair services should have Government support.
Thats actually what is happening in Sweeden and soon other European countries will follow:

" Waste not want not: Sweden to give tax breaks for repairs
Government to tackle ‘throwaway culture’ by cutting VAT on fixing everything from bicycles to washing machines"

To understand were I came from, you really have to watch the Video of Guiyo in China.

E-Waste from the Throwaway culture in Ghana

 

[JohnRoberts]

There is no free lunch... Back in the '80s while working at peavey there was a strong design to be easy to repair, culture... eventually as the market became more competitive with offshore manufacturing there was no way to remain competitive with so much hidden cost, that consumers do not see when making point of purchase decisions. Telling consumers that your product is easier to fix after it breaks is not a positive message.... what do you mean it will break?  :

A second factor as manufacturing moves thousands of miles away, and product cycles get shorter, stocking repair parts gets onerous. I recall an important tax law decision (last century) requiring that repair parts held in inventory just in case they might be use at some distant future date, must be carried at full value. Not very prudent accounting, and incentive to go skimpy on repair parts.

About a year ago my (large heavy) de-humidifier broke...  My judgement was that is was a simple temperature sensor causing the dehumidifier to think it was freezing up when it wasn't.  I told the company I would repair it myself if they gave me the replacement for the faulty part... instead they sent me a new unit, and made me scrape the serial number off the discarded unit. (I kept it for parts).  Apparently the shipping cost to send the faulty unit back to a service depot, and return was considered not worth it.

For years EU has mandated design for recycle. Design for repair seems like a good idea only to legislators. I don't want to repair my 20 year old computers.  ... Guess who pays for the extra cost involved?

Maybe my car and refrigerator should be fixable for some duration, most consumer products not so much.

JR