G1176 : No smoke but then no signal...

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heybluez

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2004
Messages
55
Hey folks,

I have the G1176 assembled with the input and output transformers and I cannot seem to get any signal to come out. Any ideas as to where to start looking? What can I trace......??

Oh yeah, the meter can be zeroed and that switch seems to work. Does this mean anything?

Thanks!
Michael
 
Hey,

Have u stuffed the extra resistors needed when using a tx on input? - think they are marked with * in the pdf...

I guess with a scope u can trace the signal from the input xlr and see where it stops? I dunno tho, i don't have a scope meself!

Soz i cant be anymore help...

D
 
Well...

Best way to go is start with the PSU- check that you've got about +30V at the +Ve output (right hand side looking from front of reg.) pin of the 7824. Also check for -10V at the anode (non-stripe end) of the zener diode (just to left of o/p transf above TL071)

If these voltages measure up okay, check and double check your connections from main board to control boards, and from all boards to panel controls. Check connections from XLR's too.

Another thing to check is your input and output connections to the XLR's externally- link pin1 and pin3 in the cable for unbalanced operation.

...if all this fails, time for signal tracing...

:thumb:

Mark
 
Michael!

I found some stuff for you... tu ose the BLoo panel. -Email me your new address and I'll see what else I can dig up.

First things first: in output metering mode, do you see any signal in the compressor? -If not, make sure you're connecting to both pins 2 and 3, not 2 and ground or anything silly. (XLR terminology)

As long as both ends of a tranny winding are connected, things should work, As long as they aren't both connected, you'll have silence. This may or may not be your problem here, but it's the most common problem folks have interfacing with TX gear.

I'll try to make a couple more switch PCBs for you if I can this week. -I'm finishing off my second bloo 1176 now that the first is singing a sweet song!

Keith
 
Hey Keith!!

I will email you my address when I get to work in the morning.

Happy new year!

Anyway, I checked the voltages and I come in around ~30V and -9.9 V. I am assuming these look right.

I also checked my connection and see they seem ok. When I blew the regulator the first time (this was a while back) could that have damaged my input transformer? I also changed the TL071 (just for heck of it) and also took out the 5532. I don't think i need it if I am using the the TX.

I can go around and take the voltages of the transitors and compare those. Now could these prevent signal from coming in? I would not think so.

Oh yeah, I don't see anything coming in on the unit. Where would I need to switch it to do so on the meter.

Thanks for your help!
-Michael
 
Hey Keith...can you PM me regarding Bloo 1176 parts. I've got the panel, and the Purple Audio board (all stuffed except for the damn FDH333's), but don't have a switchbank, meter or input Xfmr for it.

Cheers,

Kris
 
Hi Michael,

Okay. If you arm yourself with the schematic from Jakobs site:

Here!

...we can start with the "divide and conquer" method of troubleshooting.

First thing- PSU. Those voltages look spot on. That's good!

If you look across the schematic from left to right you can easily follow the audio path. Forget that this is a compressor for now- we just want to pass an audio signal. The first part of the schematic centred around the NE5532 can be ignored- you've got the input transformer. So the signal comes in to the LL1540. The output is taken from the pad "1" on the PCB next to the two 10k resistors by the input transformer, not pad "1" by the NE5532!

The first thing the input signal hits is the Input Level pot- this feeds the "compressor" part of the circuit- the FET attenuator. This is buffered by the "Signal Pre-Amp" formed around Q2, Q3 and Q4. The sidechain is fed from the output of this preamp. The preamp buffers the FET and ensures it sees a constant impedance. The output from Q4 feeds the Output Level pot. The wiper of the output level pot feeds the "Signal Line Amp", this buffers and boosts the output signal to feed the output transformer and the outside world.

So here we have some very simple signal stages which we can break down and examine to find where the signal is getting lost.

Right, have you got a small amp such as a guitar practice amp? If not, a hi-fi amp will do, feeding a small speaker. A guitar amp is better because it has a higher input impedance of ~1M. The line-in of a hi-fi amp is often 47k or so, which is a bit low, but can make a good enough job.

What you need to do is connect the input of the 1176 to a constant signal source- sine or music is fine- we're just trying to trace it. Then, make up a lead to go from the input of the monitor amp (jack, phono etc) with screened cable, to bare ends. Strip and tin the ends, and connect anything from a 0.01u to 1uF non-electrolytic capacitor to the centre of the screened cable. Insulate the connection, and sleeve with tape or sleeving the free end of the capacitor lead, leaving enough of the capacitor lead showing to use as a "probe".

Cut the screen of the cable back to 1cm or so, and solder a 30cm length of standard cable to it. Insulate this connection so no screen wire is showing, and then connect a crocodile clip to the other end.

What you've got now is a rough 'n ready signal tracing probe. Make sure the voltage rating of the cap is at least 50V. You'll probably be using a poly cap, so their ratings are usually more than sufficient.

Connect the crocodile clip ground lead to the 0V of the 1176 (if no croc clip, solder this ground lead from the test cable to the 0V trace on the PCB for now) Make sure that you connect to 0V and not a power rail, because it will cause a short circuit through the mains ground in the hi-fi/guitar amp. (I use a battery powered amp for this because it guarantees no earth loops or short circuits!)

Carefully power up the 1176 and keep the volume down on the monitor amp. Don't use headphones because the "clicks" from the cap charging when you hit a DC voltage will hurt your ears!

With the input signal connected, and the input and output controls up midway, and with nothing connected at the output, touch the leg of the "probe" capacitor at pad "1" on the board next to the input transformer. Carefully bring up the volume on the amp and listen for signa. You should hear your input signal clearly, and not distorted.

Next, touch the probe to the wiper (middle terminal) of the Input pot. Again check for signal, and adjust the input level pot- the monitored signal should vary. If no signal at all, check input wiring, transformer wiring, and pot wiring.

Next, move to the output of the Signal Preamp. Touch the probe to the terminal at the clockwise-rotation end-of-travel point on the Output Level pot. You should get signal. Then try the wiper- again it should vary. Don't forget to keep the Input Level pot turned up midway here! And watch the level of the monitor amp too.

If no level at all, then either the sidechain is faulty- causing the FET to be biased fully "on" and attenuating the signal, or their is another fault in this amp. To check the FET isn't causiing the problem, switch off and desolder it. Without the FET there is no compressor action at all, it just acts as a line amp.

If this section passes signal, then the last suspect is the Signal Line Amp. Probe at the -Ve side of C15 (that feeds the output transformer) and check for signal. If there is nothing, then the fault lies in this section.

Once you've found where in the chain the signal is disappearing, you can start checking the signal flow within each amp stage to find out where the fault is. This simple probe won't work as well for "inside" the transistor amp stages, because the possible lower input impedance of the probe/amp combination can upset the bias for the stages and/or load the audio signal at higher impedance points too much to make sense. The DC-blocking cap in the probe helps prevent bias problems, but if the input impedance of the monitor amp is low, you can get funny results w.r.t signal levels.

Here's a link to my Turbo Signal Tracing Probe :wink:

Hope this helps- once you've narrowed it down to a stage, it can get a bit easier. Let us know how it goes.

:thumb:

Mark
 
Hey!

Thanks!! I will rig this up and see where it goes :)

I appreciate your help and I will let you know what I find.

Thanks,
Michael
 
Ok...I built the Signal Probe....what a great tool!!

I know it works cause I tested it at the input and it I could hear the signal. The bad part was after the input transformer. I could not get anything through it. I tested the contacts going into the transformer and they were receiving singal. On the other side nothing! Oh boy...that is a bummer.

I am wondering if when I blew the regulator in the beginning of this project (i had to replace it....the big 1K was smoking everytime :)) if that somehow zapped that input transformer. Is this possible?

Also, anything I may be missing? I would hate to have to order another Lundahl....I might have to go without it for the time being.

I will wire it to the 5532 side and see if I can get signal in on that input and let you know.

Thanks for your help so far!
-Michael
 
Hi Michael,

Glad you found your problem- a signal tracing probe is a handy addition to the bench.

Check your solder joints to the input transformer. If still no joy, desolder it and test it out-of-circuit. I doubt that it could be damaged by a PSU fault, C1 effevtively capacitatively couples it to the circuit, and R6 (27k) is an effective current limiter anyway.

Check out the LL1540 datasheet PDF to see how to wire it- input to pins 3+4 with pins 2+4 strapped. Output from pins 6+8 with pins 5+7 strapped. Don't worry about the R's or C's shown in the datasheet diagram.

Applying your input signal directly to pins 1+3 from a signal source, you then connect your signal tracing probe across pins 6+8 and check for signal.

:thumb:

Mark
 
Hey Mark,

First I appreciate your help!

OK....silly me, the input transformer is fine. I forgot to hook pin1 and 3 up in the input XLR and was trying to run it unbalanced. As soon as I did that I had perfect signal out of the transformer as well the input pot.

Nothing was coming out of the Output pot so i decided to try to trace the signal through the board. I am not quite sure how it would flow but I tried anyway....experimenting along the way. Anyway, which FET should I desolder and remove?

Thanks for your time and your patience. I am trying to figure this out with really no electrical knowledge...I am picking it up as I go along. I guess the hard way!! :)

-Michael
 
Hi,

Okay- that's easily done with the Pin 3 thing- glad your Lundahl is okay!

Just to confirm that 1. the sidechain isn't causing problems, 2. that your FET isn't at fault, and 3. so you can check the signal preamp, it makes good sense to remove Q1 from the board during testing. Just desolder it, and then do your signal tracing through the signal preamp. This section comprises Q2, Q3 and Q4. I'll do a diagram of signal "hotspots" to check for later when I've got more time! Basically you follow the route of the audio through that stage, and at some point (usually a transistor!) it'll disappear.

Mark
 
Hi Mark,

Well...I found an older copy of an amateur radio manual and in it I found everything from basic electronics to analog signal on up. I used this to relearn some basics that I should have remembered as well as figured out what FET's were exactly. This did make it easier to understand that Q1 is what I need to remove. Unfortunately, I was unable to work on it last night and hope to get it to it tonight. i will let you know if that is what is inhibiting the signal in the preamp.

Now, I was wondering what would cause the FET to be biased fully? Initially my regulator was burnt out and did not do what it was supposed to and that is why that big 1K resistor was smoking up. I replaced that and it seemed to fix that problem. My voltages look about right now.... Anyway, could the non working regulator have damaged the FET or some transistors down the way? I did not see any other components burn or anything..wait....expect when I did have a 5532 in previously when the regulator was bad and that pretty much burst open.. Hehe...that was a first!

Anyway, this is just for discussion.

Thanks for your help! You have been and are still a great help and I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.

-Michael
 
:sad:

VENT PERIOD:

Man, the other day my lundahl seemed to be fine. today again not a good signal through it. It is louder when i take the alligator clip off of the ground but when i am touching ground it is real faint. I don't get it.

Anyway, i decided to try to get it to work with the 5532 so I wired it up that way. Not entirely better...so I decided to take a break before I throw it out the window! :) J/K....

Ok....venting period done...I will report more as I debug it later.

Thanks for listening,
Michael
 
Eureka!

OK...here is what I did tonight:

1] hooked up the ground to pin 1
2] left a 1k resistor connecting pin1 and 3
3] removed the FET (Q1)
4] listened at the input pot....works
5] listened at the output....no signal
6] figured that something was wrong with one of the three transistors (Q2,3,4) so I removed and replaced.
7] test output pot and I had SIGNAL! (you are right..be careful when touching the input peg (the one to the clockwise)...it is loud!)
8] tested it through the input transformer...I had good signal! ( i figure i had some ground connection issues before)
9] put in a new FET (what the heck!)
10] tested again and it works! Signal nice and clear and I now see it on the VU meter.

Mark, thanks so much for your help! I must be honest and say that this project has been the most educational yet. I was so unbelievably frustrated last night that I was ready to toss the thing. Tonight I was so happy that I had to get some beers to celebrate. Aww, the ups and downs of DIY :) Anyway, thank you!

For all newbies and those who are not newbies..if you don't have a little make shift signal trace probe you need to make one. What an awesome tool!

NOW, finally.... what is it over there in the UK that makes you guys analog gear guru's?! Keith and Mark....UK.......the water maybe?
 
Michael,

You've been Burnleyed.

Symptoms include persistent improvement in signal quality, increased functioning of gear, lower noise levels and more tone.

Side effects are minimal, and include euphoria, increased alcohol consumption and a sense of improved education.

Ask your doctor if Mark Burnley is right for you.

:thumb: :green: :thumb:

Keef
 
You know....I have been drinking a lot more while DIY'ing lately. Something about alcohol and handling hot soldering guns and live wires goes hand in hand.

:guinness:
 
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