Harvey Weinstein et al

[mattiasNYC]

Not understanding this? Free pass to what?

I was just expressing my opinion that making fun of races and religion is really blurring the lines everyone claims need to be in place for the better of everyone.

But you put the finger on what the difference here is though; "race" and "religion" aren't equal. The former is an poorly (socially) defined genetic trait whereas the latter is just an opinion (belief). Your political views are also beliefs, and yet we have no problem in principle making fun of them. When was the last time someone was offended that we made fun of some neo-Nazi's idiotic opinions? Like, never. We never claim that we somehow have to respect and tolerate Nazism just because it's a belief and everyone has the right to them. No, instead we combat and ridicule them based on what they are.

So, you can absolutely think that religious views and expressions should be "tolerated" and "respected" or whatever, but because they are in essence also "opinions" and "beliefs" they shouldn't get a free pass from scrutiny. That's what I meant.

You can choose your political leaning.
You can choose your religious affiliation (or none).
You can't choose your race.

 

[bluebird]

I can't help but think that it still smells of Bigotry and isn't the best thing even when it's in the guise of playful banter ? ? But yeah, it's funny.....  Just don't think that, although "tolerant" of these certain things, it's healthy to make fun of them.

Sorry Scott, meant no disrespect. I'm actually a big fan of Jesus, but not religious. I've spent much time sitting under the banyan tree and personally have come to the conclusion that I neither acknowledge or deny the existence of a God. I honestly just don't know, but reserve the right to be convinced through a personal experience. Spending almost 30 years searching for one, I came up with nothing. I felt that was enough time spent and needed to move on. I did end up with a healthy respect for all faiths in that I honestly feel they could all be right or wrong equally so I cannot judge any of them.

I do enjoy joking around with believers and non believers lightheartedly, since I still find it all fascinating but can no longer preach my point of view because I don't have one.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Make sense.......

But  I wouldn't be shocked if the Nazis started off joking too. It all has to start somewhere.........

Yeah.... but... no...

 

[metalb00b00]

This is NOT OK, but the woman could have a talk with the man and confront him on the spot telling him its not ok

Some people are just timid, shy, afraid, and unable to speak for or defend themselves.

giving the man a chance to apologize and set things straight.

A person who lacks dignity and don't realize what he/she doing is wrong, can't apologize or set things straight.

There would be some embarrassment and hurt feelings but eventually things would go back to normal.

Tell that to assault and battery victims, rape victims and bullied victims. Many of them said said no, and stood up for themselves, but did things ever go back to normal for them? Rarely. Most never. Otherwise, they wouldn't have chosen to commit suicide as a way out.

Easy for you to say whatever you want when you're not in their shoes.

 

[bluebird]

Again, I am not talking about a rape or violent assault. I am talking about an inappropriate gesture or touch. I want to illustrate that there can be a wide variety of punishment for this depending on how far the victim wants to take it.

What do you think the punishment should be for a man who is a little drunk and grabs a coworker on the butt at a party? In a perfect world what should happen after that?



P.S.
I want to make it perfectly clear, I have a daughter and wife and think that rape and violent assault should be punished to the full extent of the law, and if the victim was someone from my family...past the law.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Tell that to assault and battery victims, rape victims and bullied victims.

This is exactly the type of conversation this frenzy leads to, a conversation where grabbing ass and raping someone is the same thing.

A woman kissed me without my prior consent, and I'd rather she hadn't. Is it my duty to report her to the local authorities for rape then in your opinion?

 

[tands]

Nobody here has a frenzy, and those are the same thing, sexual assault. You can report your victimizer or not, but you've no right at all to speak for any other victim. Also, cut the crap. You were never in any physical danger, unlike women, who are daily, from men in general.

pfft.

One in every six American women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime. I bet you don’t think you know any rapists, but consider the sheer number of rapes that must occur. These rapes are not all committed by Phillip Garrido, Brian David Mitchell, or other members of the Brotherhood of Scary Hair and Homemade Religion. While you may assume that none of the men you know are rapists, I can assure you that at least one is. Consider: if every rapist commits an average of ten rapes (a horrifying number, isn’t it?) then the concentration of rapists in the population is still a little over one in sixty. That means four in my graduating class in high school. One among my coworkers. One in the subway car at rush hour. Eleven who work out at my gym.

-

When you approach me in public, you are Schrödinger’s Rapist. You may or may not be a man who would commit rape. I won’t know for sure unless you start sexually assaulting me. I can’t see inside your head, and I don’t know your intentions. If you expect me to trust you—to accept you at face value as a nice sort of guy—you are not only failing to respect my reasonable caution, you are being cavalier about my personal safety.

Fortunately, you’re a good guy. We’ve already established that. Now that you’re aware that there’s a problem, you are going to go out of your way to fix it, and to make the women with whom you interact feel as safe as possible.

To begin with, you must accept that I set my own risk tolerance. When you approach me, I will begin to evaluate the possibility you will do me harm. That possibility is never 0%. For some women, particularly women who have been victims of violent assaults, any level of risk is unacceptable. Those women do not want to be approached, no matter how nice you are or how much you’d like to date them. Okay? That’s their right. Don’t get pissy about it. Women are under no obligation to hear the sales pitch before deciding they are not in the market to buy.

https://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

And now that you're both trying to sell a sliding scale, I'm curious how drunk someone would need to claim to be, to get off with a verbal warning after groping someone's daughter at her workplace, in his opinion?

Pretty drunk? Very drunk? Or really drunk?

Feel free to add your thoughts on that too, mattias, as you're the big expert on what it's like to be sexually harrassed and assaulted.


edit: Jakob E. Reason: bordering personal attack

 

[bluebird]

I'm curious how drunk someone would need to claim to be, to get off with a verbal warning after groping one of bluebird's daughters at her workplace, in his opinion?

My daughter is 12
Not cool tands...

 

[tands]

Every woman is two somebodies daughter. If you want to talk about their daughters so cavalierly, assume your daughter is 24 and answer the question. Or run away from it.

How drunk does a man need to be, to be let off the hook for groping a woman, in your view?

Is zero tolerance sounding pretty good, now that it's 'my daughter', not 'a coworker'?

Huh.

Again, I am not talking about a rape or violent assault. I am talking about an inappropriate gesture or touch. I want to illustrate that there can be a wide variety of punishment for this depending on how far the victim wants to take it.

What do you think the punishment should be for a man who is a little drunk and grabs a coworker on the butt at a party? In a perfect world what should happen after that?



P.S.
I want to make it perfectly clear, I have a daughter and wife and think that rape and violent assault should be punished to the full extent of the law, and if the victim was someone from my family...past the law.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Nobody here has a frenzy,

I was talking about the tone of the conversation in general, not here specifically.

and those are the same thing, sexual assault.

That's true in exactly the same way as chicken and asparagus are the same thing, "food". But it's obviously a stupid argument.

If you were kidnapped and one of the kidnappers put a gun to your head, and then said: "You have to choose between option A and option B;: Option A is we rape you, option B is we grope you."....... you wouldn't bother choosing, right, because they're both the exact same thing.... correct?

You can report your victimizer or not, but you've no right at all to speak for any other victim.

I didn't. Happy?

Also, cut the crap. You were never in any physical danger, unlike women, who are daily, from men in general.

Ok, so you are saying that if I grab a woman's behind without any intent of going any further, which by definition means she's in no danger, she should just "cut the crap"? Or is it different somehow?

And now that you're both trying to sell a sliding scale,

Rape and groping isn't the same thing. It's a fact. Dumbing down the conversation by pretending they're the same thing is exactly why some men "turn off" when this conversation happens, and your 'battle' is thus lost. If you want to convince men to be on the side of women then don't dumb down the conversation.

Feel free to add your thoughts on that too, mattias, as you're the big expert on what it's like to be sexually harrassed and assaulted.

Again: If you're trying to gain sympathy for what appears to be your cause you're failing miserably. You're either belittling my experience (i.e. the act) and/or me. So either you're actually agreeing that what I experienced wasn't rape (i.e. it's not all the same) or your opinion is that we shouldn't have equality between the genders. It's sexual assault when women are at the receiving end of it, but not when men are.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Every woman is two somebodies daughter. If you want to talk about their daughters so cavalierly, assume your daughter is 24 and answer the question. Or run away from it.

How drunk does a man need to be, to be let off the hook for groping a woman, in your view?

Is zero tolerance sounding pretty good, now that it's 'my daughter', not 'a coworker'?

Huh.

Should a woman that does the very same to a man be let off the hook?

 

[JohnRoberts]

enough

JR