Harvey Weinstein et al

[Tubetec]

seeing as this topic has morphed into something else ,I might as well chip in my two cents worth on the subject .
I met a southafrican guy in a pub once ,a white S.A I should add , tough guy ,fought along with the liberian light infantry in the conflict there.
Anyway I asked him about racism in S.A, he explained that he really got along with everybody it didnt matter to him about skin colour etc ,however he said that if he was in the company of whites they expected him to behave in a racist fashion towards black people ,if he didnt play along with the game he got swept aside . the point Im trying to make here is that it didnt matter a damn that the guy just was able to get along with both sides, racism was expected by his fellow white people , if he didnt partake he was shut out . Im guessing anywhere theres racism taking place its the same engine ticking away under the hood , an expectation that draws people in cause it really isnt a simple choice .
Ruari is right in that its really only in recent years here in Ireland that we've seen alot of asylum seekers, refugees and of course people coming to this country to get away from a hell of a life in other war torn places .The interesting thing is that us ,the Irish drifted out of this country in tougher times ,to try and find a better life somewhere else in the world ,but many cant handle the fact that now the coin is flipped and other nationalities want to come here just to make a decent honest living and bring up their kids , why when generations of our people left here for the same reasons cant some people  understand the plight of people who come here to try and make a better life for themselves ? Ive met plenty of black people here and you know what ,despite the odd racist jibe or smart remark ,they wake every day with a smile on their face ,they praise the lord that they now live in a safe place where theres no war or guns or child slavery, I just cant understand why a certain segment of the population here begrude them the chance to live in peace 

 

[tands]

seeing as this topic has morphed into something else ,I might as well chip in my two cents worth on the subject .

I met a southafrican guy in a pub once ,a white S.A I should add , tough guy ,fought along with the liberian light infantry in the conflict there.

Anyway I asked him about racism in S.A, he explained that he really got along with everybody it didnt matter to him about skin colour etc ,however he said that if he was in the company of whites they expected him to behave in a racist fashion towards black people ,if he didnt play along with the game he got swept aside . the point Im trying to make here is that it didnt matter a damn that the guy just was able to get along with both sides, racism was expected by his fellow white people , if he didnt partake he was shut out . Im guessing anywhere theres racism taking place its the same engine ticking away under the hood , an expectation that draws people in cause it really isnt a simple choice .

Ruari is right in that its really only in recent years here in Ireland that we've seen alot of asylum seekers, refugees and of course people coming to this country to get away from a hell of a life in other war torn places .The interesting thing is that us ,the Irish drifted out of this country in tougher times ,to try and find a better life somewhere else in the world ,but many cant handle the fact that now the coin is flipped and other nationalities want to come here just to make a decent honest living and bring up their kids , why when generations of our people left here for the same reasons cant some people  understand the plight of people who come here to try and make a better life for themselves ? Ive met plenty of black people here and you know what ,despite the odd racist jibe or smart remark ,they wake every day with a smile on their face ,they praise the lord that they now live in a safe place where theres no war or guns or child slavery, I just cant understand why a certain segment of the population here begrude them the chance to live in peace

These are very wise words, and well said. Thank you. It also applies to sexual harrasment of women, even if you don't agree with it, you're expected to tolerate it from other men. Notice none of us said anything about bluebird minimizing 'a quick grope on the butt', wtf.  Now we're all talking about something else.

Here we got JR calling talking about white racism 'seeding dissent'. Dissent from what? Dissent from whom?

Do we need to start looking for russian bots trying to seed dissent on this forum too?  (kidding or maybe not).

 

[bluebird]

Notice none of us said anything about bluebird minimizing 'a quick grope on the butt', wtf. 

Oh no you don't, I was not minimizing that at all, I was asking people to contrast that with serious accusations of sexual assault and how much damage that could do to a persons status in a community or work place. A man may do something like that at a company party or activity perhaps misjudging his relationship with his co worker, possibly under the influence. This is NOT OK, but the woman could have a talk with the man and confront him on the spot telling him its not ok giving the man a chance to apologize and set things straight. There would be some embarrassment and hurt feelings but eventually things would go back to normal.

On the other hand the woman could go straight to the companies human resources department and lodge a formal complaint that may result in his termination, a divorce, who knows. Serious repercussions that might not be appropriate for a small laps in judgment.

On the other, other hand, if the man continued the behaviour I would hope his misdeeds were met with serious consequences and hopefully the woman feels empowered/safe enough to complain and her work place has a competent human resources department to deal with it.

I was pointing out why sexual harassment is a complicated subject to deal with. You have to take into account to many subtle degrees, relationship, situation, motive, pain and suffering.

I apologize if anyone thought I was condoning "butt groping". I was not...

 

[Tubetec]

Thanks Tands ,
I take criticism better than praise anyday ,but im glad I struck a chord anyway .
We kinda drifted back onto topic here ,and the essence of it is abuse of power ,not the rights or wrongs of a spank on the ass .In the context of the mating game a well placed spank could be just the thing you need to hit the 'on ' button with someone you like,the routine usage of sexual assault by people in positions of power is another story completely. Seems like Trump and Wienstien were so consumed by their own sense of power they thought they could just grab any woman they wanted like they were a piece of meat ,preying on the vulnerable and no doubt acting like somekind of glorified pimp with their good ol'boys later on . Theres a world of difference between the two situations ,

 

[tands]

Huh. Earlier in the thread I was confused why there was so much concern over the possibility men might be 'falsely accused' of sexual harassment, as this is not something I worry about happening. Makes more sense now. 

 

[mattiasNYC]

Public discourse is a rolling disaster for which no one accepts accountability and everyone is free to use everyone else to justify their own bad behavior.

I'm not discounting concerns that you describe, but to me the point is that all these things cut both ways. If the system focuses too much on the possibility of false accusations that coincide with failures of the legal system in those cases, you have people getting away with sexual assault.

I'd rather see people get away with murder than put innocents in jail. You can pick any type of crime you want really, innocent until proven guilty is key in my mind for a society to really function properly and morally (assuming we have a state etc).

What I'm saying is that the system is still so far biased against women that we're nowhere near that balance. False accusations have to be a drop in the bucket compared to unreported or unprosecuted sexual assaults. That's why I'm not worried about an overcorrection; we simply have a long way to go before it is possible.

Well, part of the problem here is terminology. In the media currently we're seeing at least three terms that are somewhat related; sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape. However, even though appear to be clearly different to many individuals, some don't see that big a difference between them, and it also varies between jurisdictions.

So, my first point here is that the level of "false accusations" is going to be hard to even define simply due to the fact that the definitions often are so broad and partially overlapping. After all, someone grabbing my rear in a club; is that sexual assault? And what about sexual harassment? I once had a woman call me "lamb meat" while I was changing clothes behind stage. I laughed it off, but wasn't it clearly sexual harassment? What if she had just complimented me on my fitness (I was young at the time)? Or my eyes? At some point we're going to get into an area where to one person it's a crime and to another it isn't.

My second point would be something I've wondered about. Isn't it true that the worse the crime the less frequent it is?  So we'd expect to see more cases of shop lifting than breaking and entering etc, more cases of spur-of-the-moment fist fights than  premeditated murder...... and then one has to wonder just how likely it is that crimes as severe as some of the ones we're discussing are somehow far more common than false accusations.... After all, equality surely brings with it the acceptance that not only men are jerks, but women too, and that not only men are physically damaged but women too ("some" in both cases of course).

So I'm not saying every accusation is false, and I'm not saying even a majority is, but I am saying that because this is such a sensitive issue it's pretty much not talked about and studied. There are a myriad of reasons for why someone would make up a story, and just assuming something is likely true because it's so incredibly unlikely someone would issue a false claim is exactly part of the problem I think.

 

[mattiasNYC]

I think the issue at the heart of this is how has society allowed these animals into positions of power in the first place ,its a universal problem that crosses all races creeds and colours. At the end of the day institutions ,Hollywood being one example, will undermine the victims and preserve the perpetrators and its own reputation at all costs.We've seen the same pattern here in Ireland in relation to the catholic churches response to the abuse ,torture ,rape and murder of children. Still thousands maybe even tens of thousands of bodies lie in mass graves and there's no will politically or from society in general to look into what took place in these church/state run institutions. Wouldnt you say its symptomatic of a damaged society that now you have the likes of Trump in the whitehouse ,who bragged that his power allowed him to have sex with any woman he wants and that he can manhandle them in anyway he pleases .Its a pretty dangerous message to be sending out to the youth that its acceptable to behave in that way. Seems like Weinersteins behaviour was was the biggest insider joke in hollywood for many years .

Of course all the hysteria does make a plain old spank on the ass for fun a bit of a risky game nowadays, but I think there still is a time and a place for it ,its all about context. Theres a thing  that often happens me on nights out ,say Im in a bar watching a band ,space it tight cause theres a bit of a crowd ,ocassionally you'll get a woman who walks past and 'boobs' you ,by this I mean she just manages to rub her nipples off you as she passes , theres something primal about it ,but of course its not unpleasent if it does happen .anyway just wondering if anyone else has experienced the same phenomenon.Of course if the situation is reversed a man could find himself in court for committing frotterage,wheres the equality in that ?

Agree.

 

[mattiasNYC]

point Im trying to make here is that it didnt matter a damn that the guy just was able to get along with both sides, racism was expected by his fellow white people , if he didnt partake he was shut out . Im guessing anywhere theres racism taking place its the same engine ticking away under the hood , an expectation that draws people in cause it really isnt a simple choice .

I think that's pretty much true. I've had a white ex roommate tell me straight to my face that he doesn't like black Americans, but that I'm ok of course. So there are always the exceptions to the rules, but the rules are that "they" (whomever "they" are to any specific "us") are different and inferior, whether stated or implied.

The interesting thing is that us ,the Irish drifted out of this country in tougher times ,to try and find a better life somewhere else in the world ,but many cant handle the fact that now the coin is flipped and other nationalities want to come here just to make a decent honest living and bring up their kids , why when generations of our people left here for the same reasons cant some people  understand the plight of people who come here to try and make a better life for themselves ?

Yep, agree again that this is a fairly typical trait in the west. After having subjected and colonized, and also peacefully migrated, westerners should have greater empathy for others. But very often the willingness to accept others is minimal. I know part of the objection is that 'they' don't integrate, but curiously 'we' often try to bring our customs with us. We bring our Christmas and other holy holidays and customs, we bring our foods, our clothing etc. When we do it it's ok, when they do it it's not....

Having said that I don't think that any cultural "expression" or "trait" is good. That's not my position.

 

[mattiasNYC]

I think you will find FAR more white Americans that are sick of being accused of racist behavior. The burden of proof is high, and speculation into peoples motives is intrusive and presumptuous. This sort of speculation has lead to a backlash and even more division with no clear end in sight.

Well, the problem here though is that if you want to say that it is all a matter of motive, then by discussing a topic and investigating facts we should be able to eliminate various things. Let me give you an example:

Tom says Obama was and is terrible, and that he voted for the other candidate. We ask why. He gives reason X. We investigate that claim and find that X isn't true. Tom then says Obama did Y. We investigate that and find that wasn't true either. Then he says it's because for Obama Z=24, and higher is worse. And then we investigate his preferred candidate and find that for that candidate Z=88...... But still Obama was and is terrible, and it becomes clear that nothing will change that.

So, it is reasonable to ask ourselves at that point just what parameters remain that can't be changed. It's pretty obvious to some and not to others. And we can look at opinions of this "Tom" on other issues and see if there is correlation somehow.

In other words, in my experience there is this large part of the population (not a majority) that will never ever concede that many of the things claimed about Obama were never true, and they will never reevaluate their stance. And I think it's clear, in conjunction with other sentiments of Americans, that their primary problem is that Obama was black.

Now, as for being sick of being accused of being racist I absolutely agree that many probably feel that way. However, I doubt that the group you describe is the same one that stands up against Trump when he calls white supremacists very nice people. I don't think it's the group that stands up against his depictions of Mexicans and mid-eastern Muslims. I think - based on my own experience having talked to people for decades as an adult - that within the group you're talking about there are people who as John puts it think what Trump is saying. John uses it as some sort of excuse, as if we shouldn't criticize Trump for some of the hateful things he says, simply because "he simply says what many feel but are afraid to say" (paraphrased), but those opinions are the exact problem. And I actually think that group houses many racists that don't see themselves that way and hate being described as such, despite it being essentially true.

Or in other words: For people that actually stand up against racial bigotry and speak up I doubt there are many that themselves are (incorrectly) called racists so often that they're sick of it.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Early in President Obama's first term a Harvard college professor friend of president Obama (Gates) got into a scuffle with Cambridge Police when the professor's neighbor(s) called the police on him for breaking into (or appearing to break into) his own house.  President Obama without full information publicly speculated that the Cambridge police acted "stupidly" and suggested there was a racial component to their handling of the matter.

After learning the specific circumstances surrounding the Gates arrest President Obama tried to walk back his overreaction calling it a "teachable moment" and inviting them both to a "beer summit" in the White House rose garden. 

IMO this event was emblematic of the tone between the white house and police departments, going forward.

Lots more, but I have better things to do tonight.

JR

But there probably isn't "lots more", that's the problem. This story is to Obama vs Racism as is Chicago to gun control etc. It's the one issue Republicans/Conservatives/Anti-Obama people know about and rally around, no matter how relatively trivial or irrelevant it is.

As for Obama vs police departments your criticism again appears to fall along predictable partisan lines.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Going against my better judgement to briefly dip in to this discussion.  I have my criticisms of Obama but I think he was extraordinarily restrained in this regard.  The Democrats do represent the majority of black Americans but I think Obama did a pretty good job of putting that to one side and endeavoring to represent all Americans as President.

I think Obama's election revealed the ugly truth about the extent of racism in this country, something that perhaps we had talked ourselves into believing we had made more progress on than we really had.

In Ireland when I was growing up we always prided ourselves on being fair minded and would tut tut racism abroad…..until we had an influx of African asylum seekers and Polish immigrants because of our booming economy.  The racism was always there and came out when we had a focal point.  That's similar to how I see the Obama experience.

I agree. I also think it tends to coincide with economic downturns. Worsened economy is a great reason to look for scapegoats.

 

[bluebird]

You can pick any type of crime you want really, innocent until proven guilty is key in my mind for a society to really function properly and morally (assuming we have a state etc).

This IS the key. Like I said earlier I was called to jury duty Friday and we were going through the jury selection process. We were in the court room with the defendant and we were read the charges (brought by the state).
Its a pretty intense situation. You are sworn to tell the truth and then each potential juror (there were 40 of us) was asked very personal questions. It got uncomfortable many times for all of us.

Right before the questioning the Judge spent a good 15 minutes explaining the defendant was innocent until proven guilty, that we were to assume the charges brought against him are not true until the state can prove beyond a reasonable doubt they are.

After that he said, "ok I'm going to test you, juror #16, after hearing the charges against this man, if you were asked  if he is innocent or guilty right now, which would you choose?" She almost immediately said guilty! You could see the frustration on the judges face but he was kind and patient explaining her error.  He spent another 15 minutes re-explaining the importance of this.

Its going to take at least two more days to vet all the jurors and come up with the final 12 out of 40. And to be honest, the crime is not that big of a crime, no one was hurt and no property was stolen. It almost seems comical that 40 people had to be inconvenienced for 3 days and 12 of them  for at least another week for this. Not to mention all the civil servants working the courtroom being paid by the us, the taxpayer.

But the truth of the matter is this: At the end of the day I felt very fulfilled and proud to be part of a system that puts so much importance on due process no matter what the crime and who the defendant. So whatever the larger crimes of our country, however corrupt our politicians, there is real justice being served on the local level, and that's something we should take part in when given the opportunity.

I walked out of there with more  faith in humanity than I walked in with.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Right before the questioning the Judge spent a good 15 minutes explaining the defendant was innocent until proven guilty, that we were to assume the charges brought against him are not true until the state can prove beyond a reasonable doubt they are.

After that he said, "ok I'm going to test you, juror #16, after hearing the charges against this man, if you were asked  if he is innocent or guilty right now, which would you choose?" She almost immediately said guilty! You could see the frustration on the judges face but he was kind and patient explaining her error.  He spent another 15 minutes re-explaining the importance of this.

I hope she got the boot off the jury....

 

[bluebird]

Ha! we won't know till Wednesday. But to be fair, after the judge re-explained I think she got it. Another thing he had to explain is we had nothing to do with the sentencing, Our sole purpose is to find the defendant innocent or guilty, nothing more. But I have to say it was cool seeing how diverse Los Angeles is and random the jury selection is. There was literally a person from every walk of life in that 40 people. Latino, black, white, Korean, Russian, Chinese, young, old...there was even a dude with a full turban on his head. ;D.  Made me proud to be an Angeleno.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Yeah, interesting that it was that diverse, I agree. (Trump however disagrees, as he's now said that diversity is not good... I mean... is there any doubt about his leanings any longer....?)

I think my objection to that woman serving is probably more that she didn't get it after it was explained the first time. It's a pretty easy concept to grasp I think. Or perhaps she was playing dumb to get out of it.

 

[Gold]

I would like to serve on a jury but I can't afford to.  I make it my mission to piss off both the defense attorney and prosecution and ensure my dismissal. I've succeeded the last couple times I've been called. I do enjoy that.

 

[bluebird]

Shame on you Paul  Well at least you showed up. I obviously don't know you that well, but I have a feeling you would be a good juror and make fair assumptions based on the evidence. I would argue in a bigger sense you can't afford NOT to participate in this day and age. But I'm not your mom. 8)

 

[bluebird]

I think my objection to that woman serving is probably more that she didn't get it after it was explained the first time. It's a pretty easy concept to grasp I think.

That's exactly what I thought right off the bat, but after leaving that day, I realized diversity needs not only to be cultural but intellectual as well. If its justice for the people by the people... Well, most people aren't really that smart, but that shouldn't make them less of a person. They still have a lifetime of human experience that could be important in deciding the case.

You might disagree...

 

[Gold]

, but I have a feeling you would be a good juror and make fair assumptions based on the evidence.

The attorneys don't want you to think too hard. That's how I get under their skin.  The time before last I got the defense attorney yelled at by the judge. I was proud of that.

 

[DaveP]

That's exactly what I thought right off the bat, but after leaving that day, I realized diversity needs not only to be cultural but intellectual as well. If its justice for the people by the people... Well, most people aren't really that smart, but that shouldn't make them less of a person. They still have a lifetime of human experience that could be important in deciding the case

Be prepared for disappointment.
I was summoned to be on a jury in a poor area of Wales.  One woman juror felt the need to tell the rest of us how she burnt her pussy sliding down the bannisters when drunk.  3 or 4 of them wanted to say they were not guilty just so they could get off home.
I had to get heavy with one woman over this and it was touch and go at one point but justice was finally done in the end.

DaveP