How much insulation is too much?

[Script]

About a year ago I replaced my hot water heater (after getting electric shocks while in the shower).

Keep it and advertise it to your neighburs as a true 'Japanese' experience. Invite them all over and chage 5 bucks per 10 minutes of showering. Could be a business model -- exotic Japanoiserie  ;D

Some  ly American perspective on the topic in this article:
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/05/19/reference/shocking-baths-japan/#.Wlq_glNrw1I

It's true: Some Japanese public bathing houses have 'electric baths' --  it can be fun feeling your muscles twist and contort all by themselves...

 

[JohnRoberts]

Light on ceiling, pipe to heat much lower, won't do anything.

The 60W bulb I put in this morning didn't cause the indoor temp to bump... In fact it was colder inside than out this afternoon. The brick walls have thermal mass. 

100 watt incandescent in a droplight-worklight-troublelight hung from the pipe would do something. More if you paint the pipe flat black.

This evening I added a second 60W bulb in my drop light (60W is all I had handy), hanging right on the subject cold water line.

A clamp-on high temp fixture with an orange 250 watt "keep the french fries warm at McDonalds" heat lamp would probably work too well. Diode in series would cut the power in half.

Or find an LED heatlamp to really save energy.  ;D 8)

If it were me, I would grab 5) 100 ohm, 10W resistors, wire in series, add 120V line cord and inline fuse, tape resistors to pipe every few inches with many turns of aluminum tape to catch the heat from all sides of the resistors, and wrap with insulation.

Or substitute 5) 1 ohm, and power with a 12V transformer. You can also tape the transformer to the pipe to catch that heat, too.

Gene

Seriously they make commercial pipe heaters that are a tape you wrap around the pipe with maybe single digit watts heat output and even a thermostat IIRC... This seems much more elegant.

For the record I do not have a problem yet... Haven't in over 30 years living here. But thanks for the advice .


JR

 

[Gene Pink]

The 60W bulb I put in this morning didn't cause the indoor temp to bump... In fact it was colder inside than out this afternoon. The brick walls have thermal mass.  This evening I added a second 60W bulb in my drop light (60W is all I had handy), hanging right on the subject cold water line. Seriously they make commercial pipe heaters that are a tape you wrap around the pipe with maybe single digit watts heat output and even a thermostat IIRC... This seems much more elegant.

I am familiar with heat tape, already mentioned in this thread. Do they make really short ones that would work for you? Your hanging trouble light will probably be fine.

Here's a story from back in Jersey, early '80s.

Plant manager instructed me, over my objections, to do a spiral wrap of heat tape on a 300 foot run of 2 inch black iron water pipe in an unheated warehouse. Heater tape was 5 watts per foot, meant for a straight run on the bottom of the pipe. Also instructed to add a double wrap of fiberglass, this is just too damn much. But I did it anyway, per boss instructions. We all know how that goes.

Came in the next morning, 300 foot run at roof level and a downrunner, I tested by cracking open the 2" ball valve at the bottom of the downrunner.

Damn near got scalded by high pressure steam blasting out.

I made a boiler. :

One of the failings of humanity, is basing your opinions and advice on your own experiences to draw from. From my point of view, what I suggested above is all "in stock parts" here, including an assortment of old school mechanical pressure tube thermostats that could be added to this. It would take a half hour or so to be done with it. Heat tape would mean making a run to the hardware store, and spending money.

Doesn't everyone on here, have a 50+ year collection of everything possibly useful, stripped from whatever over the years? 8)

Gene

 

[JohnRoberts]

I am familiar with heat tape, already mentioned in this thread. Do they make really short ones that would work for you? Your hanging trouble light will probably be fine.

The 2x 60W did not keep the room above freezing (right at 30' this morning), but the drop light right at that pipe may be enough for that one pipe that appears to be my weakest link.

I have a long history of rigging my own DIY solutions, but I have come to appreciate commercial solutions that can work even better and be UL approved, while not costing much more that any specialized parts I might need to source.

The first picture is a 6W heater with thermostat for $30

Here is an even better deal 42W for $25 but neither one is in stock within driving distance

Here's a story from back in Jersey, early '80s.

Plant manager instructed me, over my objections, to do a spiral wrap of heat tape on a 300 foot run of 2 inch black iron water pipe in an unheated warehouse. Heater tape was 5 watts per foot, meant for a straight run on the bottom of the pipe. Also instructed to add a double wrap of fiberglass, this is just too damn much. But I did it anyway, per boss instructions. We all know how that goes.

Came in the next morning, 300 foot run at roof level and a downrunner, I tested by cracking open the 2" ball valve at the bottom of the downrunner.

Damn near got scalded by high pressure steam blasting out.

I made a boiler. :

Life gives us the test first and then the answers.....I bet you won't forget the lesson.

One of the failings of humanity, is basing your opinions and advice on your own experiences to draw from. From my point of view, what I suggested above is all "in stock parts" here, including an assortment of old school mechanical pressure tube thermostats that could be added to this. It would take a half hour or so to be done with it. Heat tape would mean making a run to the hardware store, and spending money.

more than a run... more like a road trip to a different nearby city. Buying over the internet is my friend.  We have 2 mid teen night forecast for next week so I may go ahead and order some heat tape. Even though it won't show up in time. I can do my laundry one of those two nights so have an excuse to run the dryer.

Doesn't everyone on here, have a 50+ year collection of everything possibly useful, stripped from whatever over the years? 8)

Gene

I have junk that I carried with me from my childhood home in NJ (part of an old WE amplifier of my fathers). I have been trying hard to throw away my excess JIC inventory for years now. I  have a fresh pile at the curb almost every month for town pickup.

My DIY heater projects in the recent past involve a microprocessor and me making a temp sensor from a diode junction. I actually have some code that likely could be repurposed, I even have the right size power resistors and switching triacs, so I could make a regulated temperature heater BUT for only $25 I an really tempted to go with the canned solution.

Have you ever been shocked by your shower water?

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

I appreciate that I should not expect much sympathy when complaining about cold weather but for some amusing coincidence (perhaps) today the morning after the last really cold overnight forecast for a while, my foam faucet covers, and my pipe heating tape finally showed up...

So I'm all set for next year. 

JR

 

[Youngwhisk]

John,

It is sad I know,  but I look forward to hearing about your exploits with things that have broken and your solutions for fixing them. Both here and in your Entropy thread on that other forum.

 

[JohnRoberts]

John,

It is sad I know,  but I look forward to hearing about your exploits with things that have broken and your solutions for fixing them. Both here and in your Entropy thread on that other forum.

Well maybe if you weren't in another country you could come over and help me lift my new oven up into the wall cut out. I got the old one down and out in my carport already this morning. Looks like an easy 2 man lift, but might be a struggle for one (very old) man.  :-[

I tried to hire a local electrician to wire in a junction box (and bring his helper to lift stuff), but he hasn't returned my phone calls for almost two weeks now so time (and ovens) waits for no man (electrician).  He also does plumbing so I suspect he has been up to his waders in broken water pipes after the recent unseasonably cold snap.

=====

I feel like I need to go ahead and replace my washer and dryer... they are the only other major appliances that haven't failed in the last several  years.  I hear that south Korea is shipping boatloads over here in anticipation of anti-dumping tariffs, so now is not a bad time to buy white goods when the warehouses are packed to the rafters with them.

It is just against my religion to replace appliances that still work.  :

JR

 

[Goodizzy]

John,

Yikes, being shocked by the water heater!!  . That sounds like a BAD problem!

Is the water heater in an unfinished basement, crawlspace, or otherwise unconditioned room?  (Apologies if this was answered above).  Is the water heater wrapped in radiant barrier material or fiberglass insulation?  I spent some time laying the former while working for a "green energy" company and on the majority of installs we did we always wrapped the water heater.  Newer water heaters are supposed to be better insulated but I wouldn't hesitate wrapping it just the same.  Of course be sure to seam it with foil tape...

We just bought a "new" fixer upper house and I have been tasked with saving us bundles of money by diying most of the contractor work. (Minus HVAC and roof).  Luckily I have some experience doing this kind of work and so I'm hoping to be able to keep my labor expenses to a minimum.

I am going to end up having to redo the entire plumbing system and am heavily leaning toward running pex either with a dual manifold home run system or recirc pump.  The house is a colonial, however, and so its much simpler to run.  Additonally, the basement is unfinished so that elminates having to bust sheetrock.  Pex is supposed to be better than copper at resisting freezing but of course a long cold spell will effect anything in a house.  The newer pex connectors are much more durable than the older stuff they used which gave pex its "bad" reputation originally.

 

[JohnRoberts]

John,

Yikes, being shocked by the water heater!!  . That sounds like a BAD problem!

clearly could have been worse... I felt the tingle when I sampled the temperature so got my butt out of the shower before there was a stronger conductive path.

Is the water heater in an unfinished basement, crawlspace, or otherwise unconditioned room?  (Apologies if this was answered above). 

The water heater was in my laundry room for some 30 years while I lived here, and who knows how long before I bought this casa. 

Is the water heater wrapped in radiant barrier material or fiberglass insulation?

My new one is very well insulated, which perhaps is why I had a cold water pipe freeze in the same room. :

I spent some time laying the former while working for a "green energy" company and on the majority of installs we did we always wrapped the water heater.  Newer water heaters are supposed to be better insulated but I wouldn't hesitate wrapping it just the same.  Of course be sure to seam it with foil tape...

Heat loss has nothing to do with the shock hazard... The electrical field from heating hot water causes exposed steel to erode (oxidise). The water heaters typically have a sacrificial anode (aluminum or magnesium) to preferentially give up atoms preserving the steel tank and heater casing. After several decades my sacrificial anode was long gone and rust had eaten it's way through to the heating element, energizing my bath water.

We just bought a "new" fixer upper house and I have been tasked with saving us bundles of money by diying most of the contractor work. (Minus HVAC and roof).  Luckily I have some experience doing this kind of work and so I'm hoping to be able to keep my labor expenses to a minimum.

I am going to end up having to redo the entire plumbing system and am heavily leaning toward running pex either with a dual manifold home run system or recirc pump.  The house is a colonial, however, and so its much simpler to run.  Additonally, the basement is unfinished so that elminates having to bust sheetrock.  Pex is supposed to be better than copper at resisting freezing but of course a long cold spell will effect anything in a house.  The newer pex connectors are much more durable than the older stuff they used which gave pex its "bad" reputation originally.

My general advice if you have electric hot water  is to check the sacrificial anode, but be prepared for a struggle. My heater was replaced about a year ago and when I tried to unscrew the anode it was no go... I bought an impact wrench and still can't break it loose.  I need another warm body to hold my heater so it doesn't move when I crank down on my breaker bar, a two man job and I am but one man.

Sometimes I regret never having kids (like for lifting heavy stuff, etc).

Good luck

JR

 

[Gene Pink]

Sometimes I regret never having kids (like for lifting heavy stuff, etc).

A handyman is much cheaper in the long term. Trust me.

Gene

 

[Goodizzy]

Sorry John if I didn't format my reply more succinctly.  I know heat loss is not related to shock hazard, I was trying to get a bit more info to help you with the frozen pipe issue...  Also I was referring to any outer wrapping over the water heater, not the internal insulation of the unit.

Gene is right though regarding hiring a contractor.  Can't hooah everything

 

[JohnRoberts]

A handyman is much cheaper in the long term. Trust me.

Gene

I am looking forward to my would be electrician's return call...  Sorry Charlie.  ;D
-----
There are two local kids I am thinking about possibly drafting for strong back gigs, but I worry modern millenials are not as motivated as we were for earning a quick dollah.  The more reasonable one of the two was not home this weekend (I think he's in college.)

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

Sorry John if I didn't format my reply more succinctly.  I know heat loss is not related to shock hazard, I was trying to get a bit more info to help you with the frozen pipe issue...  Also I was referring to any outer wrapping over the water heater, not the internal insulation of the unit.

As often happens I am close to managing the frozen pipe threat a little late. Weather patterns have returned to normal. I picked up a short 3' 20W pipe heater wrap, that I will install as soon as I pick up a short extension cord for it. 20W right on the subject pipe should hold me another 30 years. 

Gene is right though regarding hiring a contractor.  Can't hooah everything

Yes I still have one more heavy lift to go. On Christmas morning my in wall air conditioner-heat pump woke me up to a thump, thump, thump death rattle. So the replacement is sitting waiting for me to pop the old one out and this new one in, but at 95# and about 4' up the wall, I can't hooah this one by myself (even in my dreams).  I planned to take advantage of my electrician's strong back helper (they all seem to bring one with them), but now it looks like that isn't going to happen.

JR

 

[PRR]

> body to hold my heater so it doesn't move

Earthquake strap.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Water+Heater+Strap+Kit
https://www.homedepot.com/b/Plumbing-Water-Heaters-Water-Heater-Parts/Restraint/N-5yc1vZbqolZ1z0u2lm

About as cheap as renting a warm and motivated body for an hour. Probably not stocked locally in the silt-lands; click-order one, I did.

> 95# and about 4' up the wall, I can't hooah this

Bah. Hook in joist above, come-along (or deer hoist), done.

 

[JohnRoberts]

> body to hold my heater so it doesn't move

Earthquake strap.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Water+Heater+Strap+Kit
https://www.homedepot.com/b/Plumbing-Water-Heaters-Water-Heater-Parts/Restraint/N-5yc1vZbqolZ1z0u2lm

Those look like could break them loose too...(1/2" breaker bar with pipe torque extender on end..).  Maybe a variant on that, a strap wrench that fits a 2-3' diameter tank...    Thanks for the idea.

My impact wrench didn't even phase it.

About as cheap as renting a warm and motivated body for an hour. Probably not stocked locally in the silt-lands; click-order one, I did.

> 95# and about 4' up the wall, I can't hooah this

Bah. Hook in joist above, come-along (or deer hoist), done.

My neighbor said I could borrow his son one evening next week who could lift it himself for chuckles.

This sounds promising.  Maybe I'll get him to hold the water heater too.... That would check another one off my list.

JR

PS: no visible beams or joists in my living room...  I could punch through the ceiling and maybe pull it down in on me... 

 

[Gene Pink]

My impact wrench didn't even phase it.

Mine would. Either that, or rip the bung weld clean out of the tank. ;D

My neighbor said I could borrow his son one evening next week who could lift it himself for chuckles.

Human forklifts do come in handy.

Gene

 

[JohnRoberts]

Mine would. Either that, or rip the bung weld clean out of the tank. ;D
Human forklifts do come in handy.

Gene

Yup, I bought a plug in electric impact wrench because I do not have an air compressor handy (not needed for SMD rework).  I didn't buy the cheapest/weakest model, but clearly not enough power.  My heater was only 6 months old at the time, how tight could it be?  (ans. tight enough).

I have never heard of one twisting out... Something like a 1-1/8" steel bolt head/socket.... but I have read about wimpy sockets shattering from the stress.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

Mine would. Either that, or rip the bung weld clean out of the tank. ;D
Human forklifts do come in handy.

Gene

Success,,,, last night the borrowed labor got the airco/heat pumps swapped out, so exactly one month from the failure. Luckily I still had the old school in wall heaters to use in the meantime.

No more 2 man (or one stong kid) lifts anticipated for near future, while I do still need to break loose the anode from my water heater. It is not urgent.

JR