How would you go about getting a Neumann U47 ?

[elmolemon]

I would go with Poctops Dual PCB with the PERFECT shopping cart from Mouser US with all Parts incl the PSU Parts + Hammond Case, the authentic looking Micbody from china for under 150 USD incl. the schockmount, good General Electric 407 Tubes from DB Tubes in Canada, the Reed Relais from RS Electronic, Transformer from AMI, Cinemag, UTM..... , as for capsules there are a lot of options - Arienne Audio with the Flat 47 is definitly a superb worldclass choise at a fantastic great price, Thierschs M7 from German or 3U M7 Capsules also known as excellent butter sounding pieces and IMO affordable.. , all options below 1000 Euros...

This is similar to what I plan to use for my first U47 style build down the road. I ordered Poctops D-EF47 PCB and a U47 style mic body with shock mount from Aliexpress. For the capsule I plan to use an Arienne Audio Flat 47 (preordered) or maybe a Thiersch M7. Regarding the transformer I’ll probably go with AMI or Moby. Reading your comment gave me some (well needed) confidence that I’m not completely off.

 

[Cqwet Dbdfte]

How do the Jensen transformers stack up in this conext? Specs are good, double shielding not bad.

 

[GeorgeToledo]

You really have to get an actual Neumann k47/k49, or Thiersch for the ballpark sound. The capsule *not* being flat, and being hypercardioid at high frequency, is an important part of the character.

Thiersch and Neumann capsules can even be close enough to use as a stereo pair. When it comes to other companies, the differences between “M7” and “k47” seem like they have been tailored to internet whims. There is a general trend of low end not being correct with imitators, and I write that up to incorrect film, incorrect tension, and incorrect gold thickness.

Whatever tube circuit you use, you want clean and ample low end under 90hz.

You don’t need to stuff two tubes inside a mic to achieve that either, better not to.

 

[Delta Sigma]

After building a good pile of mics (2 @ U67, M49, EF-U47, 47FET, 251, 2 @ C12) I'm convinced that most people buying U47 clones are chasing the M49 with an M7 sound.

I'm sure that Neumann capsules and real VF14s/AC701s could make my opinion change. But a Beesneez/Heiserman/Dany/Thiersch M7, decent M49 body, Moby BV11, and any of the readily available subs for the AC701 would make a mic good enough that you'd never Google U47 again. Mine is an unbelievable vocal mic and it's almost as versatile as the great U67.

I did a fun shootout one day with a friend. We swapped a Beesneez M7, Beesneez K7 (K47), and Arienne flat K47 in my M49 and U47 builds. Our personal preference generally followed the M7. We felt the least versatile pairing was the K7 in the U47, though that pairing would make the best pop vocal mic. We ended up leaving the M7 in the M49 and the flat 47 in the U47.

As an instrument mic, neither my U47 or M49 come close to being in the same arena as my C12s with TC CT12s.

 

[OneRoomStudio]

After building a good pile of mics (2 @ U67, M49, EF-U47, 47FET, 251, 2 @ C12) I'm convinced that most people buying U47 clones are chasing the M49 with an M7 sound.

I'm sure that Neumann capsules and real VF14s/AC701s could make my opinion change. But a Beesneez/Heiserman/Dany/Thiersch M7, decent M49 body, Moby BV11, and any of the readily available subs for the AC701 would make a mic good enough that you'd never Google U47 again. Mine is an unbelievable vocal mic and it's almost as versatile as the great U67.

I did a fun shootout one day with a friend. We swapped a Beesneez M7, Beesneez K7 (K47), and Arienne flat K47 in my M49 and U47 builds. Our personal preference generally followed the M7. We felt the least versatile pairing was the K7 in the U47, though that pairing would make the best pop vocal mic. We ended up leaving the M7 in the M49 and the flat 47 in the U47.

As an instrument mic, neither my U47 or M49 come close to being in the same arena as my C12s with TC CT12s.

I'm curious about what kind of difference you heard between the M7 and the Flat K47 in the M49 circuit. From other's descriptions, it seems that the Flat K47 is "more in the M7 direction" than a standard K47.

 

[elmolemon]

We ended up leaving the M7 in the M49 and the flat 47 in the U47.

Very interesting! Is this the EF-U47 based on Poctop’s D-EF47 PCB? Could you maybe describe the sound characteristics? I plan to build a D-EF47 and preorded a Flat K47.

 

[Delta Sigma]

I'm curious about what kind of difference you heard between the M7 and the Flat K47 in the M49 circuit. From other's descriptions, it seems that the Flat K47 is "more in the M7 direction" than a standard K47.

Since I probably don't want to reveal my awful playing and singing, I won't ever post the shootout results. Unfortunately, that only leaves subjective descriptions. It's also been a good five months or so; take this recollection with a huge grain of salt.

The Flat 47 felt a little more, well, flat. Less exciting. It did sound fine in the M49 circuit, but was less enjoyable to listen back to, than the M7. The Flat 47 will do nothing offensive, though. Ever. The U47 being a more in-your-face sounding amp, the Flat 47 made the 47 much more versatile.

This, again being so subjective, is skewed by the fact that I'm not a K47 fan. That little 4k bump is so pleasing on first listen, and when it hits the right spot it's such a fantastic capsule. When it doesn't work, it just seems like a lot of money tied up into a useless mic. When I first fired up my U47 (with the BN K7), I was recording a song that it was perfect on, and I thought it was the best mic ever! Since then (w/K7), it would only win maybe one out of every 15 times between it and the M49 w/M7.

 

[Delta Sigma]

Very interesting! Is this the EF-U47 based on Poctop’s D-EF47 PCB? Could you maybe describe the sound characteristics? I plan to build an D-EF47 and preorded a Flat K47.

Yes. I built it using Dany's mechanical kit. EF802 with a Moby BV08. Modified it for variable patterns when switched to omni, but U47 capsule voltage - not U48.

My friend used it on this song. I think on everything. It would be better if I had a dry sample to share, but it should give you an idea of its versatility:

 

[elmolemon]

Yes. I built it using Dany's mechanical kit. EF802 with a Moby BV08. Modified it for variable patterns when switched to omni, but U47 capsule voltage - not U48.

My friend used it on this song. I think on everything. It would be better if I had a dry sample to share, but it should give you an idea of its versatility:

Thanks a lot for sharing! This makes me excited to approach my D-EF47 build.

 

[Tubetec]

Ive been thinking of finding a TLM 103 and making an M49 style mic from it ,
not using an AC701 , but another submini ,
You could easily redo the red infil on the TLM 103 badge to black , if it mattered to you .

Agreed with Khron ,
buying a 70 year old microphone ,via the internet , without being able to test it first ,
complete madness ,
Even if you could thouroughly test it theres no benchmark to compare to ,

My experience using u47's was that tube microphonics causes a lot of unwanted interactions , the state of the anti vibration mountings and the tube itself make the difference .
We got good and bad examples of U47's on hire , if its a good one it often works on nearly anything you throw at it , if its a total dud you might hear mechanical noise in a particular frequency range when the sound source excites it ,but thats never going to be the same for any two specimens .

They say Sinatra had a collection of U47's , but had one favourite , it may have had added a particular colour to the sound that he liked .

 

[Khron]

They say Sinatra had a collection of U47's , but had one favourite , it may have had added a particular colour to the sound that he liked .

Well, to be fair, those would've been "barely out of the factory" at the time...

 

[GeorgeToledo]

Since I probably don't want to reveal my awful playing and singing, I won't ever post the shootout results. Unfortunately, that only leaves subjective descriptions. It's also been a good five months or so; take this recollection with a huge grain of salt.

The Flat 47 felt a little more, well, flat. Less exciting. It did sound fine in the M49 circuit, but was less enjoyable to listen back to, than the M7. The Flat 47 will do nothing offensive, though. Ever. The U47 being a more in-your-face sounding amp, the Flat 47 made the 47 much more versatile.

This, again being so subjective, is skewed by the fact that I'm not a K47 fan. That little 4k bump is so pleasing on first listen, and when it hits the right spot it's such a fantastic capsule. When it doesn't work, it just seems like a lot of money tied up into a useless mic. When I first fired up my U47 (with the BN K7), I was recording a song that it was perfect on, and I thought it was the best mic ever! Since then (w/K7), it would only win maybe one out of every 15 times between it and the M49 w/M7.

The Beesneez is not equivalent to a real k47, it’s edgier just like you found. And with a little less low end. It’s not extremely wrong, but it is identifiably different from the genuine thing, and if you are concentrating on the details it may not sit right in comparison.

I have a Neumann k47 in an M49 clone that is the smoothest thing ever. Don’t discount them based on imitations.

As far as U47 clones go, given the right recordings, you often can pick out different capsules and tube configurations in common U47 clones, they are so identifiably different from the real thing. If you use them in real life you note the differences and can then hear them in some of the blind tests people post. It may seem unlikely, but I bet many would also find that to be the case in reality.

 

[Tubetec]

So maybe it shows even relatively new mics had quirks or particular ones sounded better on a given source .

 

[GeorgeToledo]

I think some of the discrepancies with old units are from comparing apples vs oranges configurations that wouldn’t ever be quite the same. Early GN transformer vs BV08, european vs gotham configuration/output transformer strapped differently, brighter sounding old M7 vs k47 that’s performing to spec, and especially VF14 vs nuvistor and the different low end.

A well functioning U47 with VF14 has noticeable characteristics in bandwidth, how low end/plosives comes across in someone’s voice, polar pattern, harmonic distortion, and how consonant and sibilant sounds come across.

Neumann never made a U47 that sounds like a mic with Beesneez k7 and EF12, or a FLEA with whatever and whatever else, exceptional as either may be for recording.

 

[LevinGuitar]

Ive been thinking of finding a TLM 103 and making an M49 style mic from it ,
not using an AC701 , but another submini ,
You could easily redo the red infil on the TLM 103 badge to black , if it mattered to you .

Agreed with Khron ,
buying a 70 year old microphone ,via the internet , without being able to test it first ,
complete madness ,
Even if you could thouroughly test it theres no benchmark to compare to ,

My experience using u47's was that tube microphonics causes a lot of unwanted interactions , the state of the anti vibration mountings and the tube itself make the difference .
We got good and bad examples of U47's on hire , if its a good one it often works on nearly anything you throw at it , if its a total dud you might hear mechanical noise in a particular frequency range when the sound source excites it ,but thats never going to be the same for any two specimens .

They say Sinatra had a collection of U47's , but had one favourite , it may have had added a particular colour to the sound that he liked .

A K103 capsule in a KM84 circuit with a big core trafo (UTM ones should fit that body I guess) is already a very good mic, no need to go tube.

 

[Tubetec]

A replacement for a VF14 might be possible with a sub mini tube but youd need to derive a heater voltage from the 105v HT line and pack all that into a VF14 style shell ,
Its not going to sound like a VF14 , but at least it would have direct compatibillity with existing U47's without dismantling and redesigning the thing entirely which would greatly reduce its value .
Maybe Danny has used a DC-DC module in his new VF14 , I guess were going to find out soon .

 

[mrgrooves666]

Just some personal thoughts, and I'm no expert on the subject as others here, so take mine as such... I once built a DEF-47, and I took the time to gather good ingredients, starting with a genuine vintage Neumann k49 capsule in very nice condition, AMI's classic traffo, and Tele tube, all rest good parts. I used Danny's pcb version btw. I didn't had first hand experience with a real U47, but the mic sounded beautiful, very clean, surprisingly low noise, and a bright sheen with raise around 4-5k. A very fine mic, but I do have to admit It personally was not what I was expecting though...I guess I was expeting it to be more warm, vintage/dark sounding, and it actually sounded different, not in any bad way at all either....
Although I did not had a chance to try it, as I unfortunately had to sell that mic long ago before Ari introduced her capsules here, if you're looking for that warm sound most of us are probably chasing, I personally think that her F47 would have been a better match for that DEF-47, than that K47/49 was, Just my 2 cents .

 

[tomas.borgstrom]

I find the K47 flat to sound very good in both M49 and U47 designs. Not as excited as M7 and K47 but that's also a good thing. I like 70V capsule bias but take that with a grain of salt. My favourite capsule is the M7 but it's tricky. I've heard many Neumann Berlin and the general sound is the same but they vary especially in the low end. They moved on to the K47 for a reason. I have one M7 and one K47 from 3U audio and I find them quite close to the originals. Not perfect in the low end. The Thiersch capsules especially red line sounds good but I don't think they have the same sound as Neumann Berlin.

If you build a clone with another tube than the original schematics I recommend to experiment with the plate resistor and the grid voltage. Getting it right can change the microphone from hard and bass shy to relaxed and full. Most of the clone schematics floating around on internet can be improved on. Stay away from the 1G resistors.

 

[Dylan W]

A K103 capsule in a KM84 circuit with a big core trafo (UTM ones should fit that body I guess) is already a very good mic, no need to go tube.

Have you tried this? I already like the TLM103 for pop vocals, would be interesting to hear a before and after.

 

[LevinGuitar]

Have you tried this? I already like the TLM103 for pop vocals, would be interesting to hear a before and after.

I did but not in the original body. I just bought several K103 used capsules and tried in some mics and circuits. And they don't match many things, the basket have to be similar to the native one. In the end I ended up with native KM84 values and UTM 47 trafo.
A friend love it and use it for rap vocals. Even today when I listen to many of my mic builds test (I always record the same), that one pops up easily among the rest.
A original K47/49 have the midrange boost lower and are even nicer for vocals, but also are more expensive and harder to get.

To have an idea of what difference you'll achieve, do that mod to any schoeps like mic and listen the before and after, the difference will be quite the same between them. More body (depends on you trafo) and slightly less top end. Also, and this is very subjective, cleaner or more pleasant.