If only two mics... ?

[Emmathom]

Hi guys !

I have been seriously thinking for some time about lightening my equipment fleet. 90% of my activity is recording classical music ensembles, ranging from duos to sextets, in locations such as churches, chapels or small amphitheaters (maximum 100m2 / 300 square feet). I guess that multi-micking is ideal for recording modern bands (drums for example, even if the Glinn Jones method works fine to me) or for live music on stage where you must have each source independant for mixing. But I never record drums and stack to my classical ensembles.

I now own several pairs of SDC and LDC and I would like to learn to work with one and only one pair, as we listen with our pair of ears. I'm about to resell most of my mics also to get so money because times are hard. I have also eight mic pre channels (6 tubes + 2 OPA) and that's too mcuh for my regular activity which is episodic, like about 10 recordings a year...

So I would like to gather your opinions and your experience on these points:
- the relevance of working with only one pair of microphones
- the choice of this pair

I know that the ideal placement of a single pair is a tough challenge and that I will have to experiment much before obtaining good results.
I guess that a multi pattern pair of mics is unavoidable to set either ORTF and XY (cardio) or AB (omni).

My budget for this pair is a maximum 1000€ (for a used pair) and I thought about AKG C414 which is a great mic either in cardio than in omni mode... but the budget is more about 1500€ for a used but clean pair, so the last questions are :
- what do you think about the Lewitt 441 Flex (no OPT) and the Warm Audio WA14 (Cinemag OPT).
- If some of you have already tested these two mics, what are your feelings (and maybe some measurement ? would be great)
- is there another model inspired by the C414 in that price range ?

Best Regards

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

Given the style you record i would rather look at SDC than LDC ( don't take me wrong i like LDC but SDC are often truer to source ime). And if possible with exchangeable capsule for different directivity/type of couples.
Ideally i would look at Schoeps but i fear it would be too pricey.

For Rock and derivative i found Oktava to be fairly usable (even when i had Km84 accessible, i often prefered Oktava for their rendering) but i don't know if they would do for classical?

And a pair of 'clean' preamp/converters.

 

[kingkorg]

Patterns on multipattern LDC are wonky, and if was to rely solely on two mics, i would never go for multipattern LDC.

If i absolutely had to, then i'd build 2x dual output mics with matched capsules.

I wouldn't trust either Lewit or WA for such important task.

OC818 would probably the best off the shelf option, but the price tag might be too high. But it should be possible to score two for 1500€, and they claim all of the mics can be considered matched. So you don't have to buy them in pairs.

 

[Emmathom]

Given the style you record i would rather look at SDC than LDC ( don't take me wrong i like LDC but SDC are often truer to source ime). And if possible with exchangeable capsule for different directivity/type of couples.
Ideally i would look at Schoeps but i fear it would be to pricey.

For Rock and derivative i found Oktava to be fairly usable (even when i had Km84 accessible, i often prefered Oktava for their rendering) but i don't know if they would do for classical?

And a pair of 'clean' preamp/converters.

Well I had an Oktava pair (which has been tested against other mics like LDC and WA-84 from Warm Audio in one of my other threads) and most listeners did not like them and so did I. Then I sold them. The WA-84 offers more quality, more "sparkle".

A SDC pair with cardio & omni capsules... hum there's not so much choice in my price range.

I could keep my WA-84 and by 2 omnis capsules or let's check what we've got in my price range (cardio & omni) :
Rode NT55 MP (700€ a pair)
Shure KSM 141 (1000€ a pair)
Lauten Audio LA-120 V2 (595€ a pair)
sE8 (580€ a pair)
Austrian Audio (guys from AKG) CC8 (800€ a pair)
keep my WA-84 and buy 2 omni capsules (220€)

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

Otherwise working with only one pair of mic is a nice exercice imho.
It can be frustrating but after all it's the 'best' (purest?) way to achieve stereo recording. It doesn't suit all style but the one you do it can.
You'll need to spend time locating musician and couple wrt room's acoustics. And you'll have to intuitively 'feel' if a couple rendering is adapted to what you have in mind. It'll require quite some practice before it become intuitive enough. Knowing SRA, stereo induced distortion and other couple characteristics help. As a 'crocodile' to have visual clues of outcome.

Then there is the musicians: if they don't get you cannot manipulate things afterward it can be difficult. In Classical it's rarely the case but i had one drummer which asked to lower the cymbals hits as he hited too hard... : 'no way my friend, you are the player: you manage your level with your hands, there is only 3 mics,overhead and kick, if i change level for cymbals i change for the whole kit...'. He had a strange look when he understood we realy listened to his playing. No cheat.

 

[Emmathom]

Thanks @kingkorg

Patterns on multipattern LDC are wonky, and if was to rely solely on two mics, i would never go for multipattern LDC.
If i absolutely had to, then i'd build 2x dual output mics with matched capsules.

That's a thing I did not think about ! maybe a clever idea !

I wouldn't trust either Lewit or WA for such important task.

Why ? Reliability ? But... WA-14 is supposed to sound great ?

OC818 would probably the best off the shelf option, but the price tag might be too high. But it should be possible to score two for 1500€, and they claim all of the mics can be considered matched. So you don't have to buy them in pairs.

Yeah I have looked toward OC818...

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

Oktava, i think i get what you are talking about. The lack of 'sparkle' is what i like about them for Rock. And i can achieve this using a shelf eq afterward if needed.

Akg c451 ( the original serie with modular capsule) could suit your taste if you like more high freq oriented rendering but price will probably be an issue too.

In fixed capsule Josephson c42 was in this same category to me ( really great mic imho). Maybe second hand ?

The more i think about it the more i tell myself if i was into your situation i would not downsize too much too soon and use multiple different couple and mic types for each recordings. Something like 4 different couples each time, you'll gather a lot of info this way and see what you prefer in the end. From there invest into your ultimate set up ( does this ever exist?).
After all maybe you'll prefer LDC ( i like my U47 inspired mics for some acoustical sources like piano. Even have 'historical' recording done using them ( the original, not my inspired ones ) in decca tree...(Rubinstein playing Chopin on Sony catalog).

 

[emrr]

I would look around for some Sennheiser MKH 405 or 406, even dealing with connector and T power adapters they can be bargains and sound great for your sort of work. Omni 105's and 106's too.

 

[Emmathom]

I would look around for some Sennheiser MKH 405 or 406, even dealing with connector and T power adapters they can be bargains and sound great for your sort of work. Omni 105's and 106's too.

Well most of you would choose SDC rather than LDC... Ok... I thought C414 would be a really good candidate since it's a to-do-all reputed mic and is great sounding (sounds great on grand piano btw).

About a SDC pair, I don't look for the holly grail and would like to stick to new mics, I mean mics you can find brand new or used but easily. What if you had to choose in my list ? or other mics but same price & same availability ?

Let me add a precision : I do these recordings most of the time for free because it's a hobby that i do with passion. I charge the musicians only when they ask for some video because that's my main job and, as surprising as it may be, most classical musicians I've met don't care about being or not recorded. They care about their live representation. They would hardly pay to be audio recorded (and that to say, they're not "rich" as the culture domain in France does not benefit from large budgets from the government) So I must stay in a price range according to my hobby...

 

[emrr]

^ - yes, I prefer to use multiple pairs when possible for options in the coverage, it's always a voyage of discovery to find the best blend in post.

I don't know any of your list other than the KSM 141 and I've only heard those over drums.

The Sennheisers compete with or beat anything, and are only recently going up in cost. There should be plenty used close to you, perhaps some you can even hear first. I don't think I paid more than $200 for any of the 105/105/405/406 I have, several years ago. Phantom to T power adapters are around $50 ea, if they don't have XLR's those adapters are around $30 ea. I've got a lot of SDC's, newer MKH and Neumann, and the older MKH totally compete. I did just find a pair of Neumann KM140's for under $1000US - so you may be missing a great opportunity not considering older mics, unless you just need CC or dealer financing on something new.

 

[Emmathom]

^ - yes, I prefer to use multiple pairs when possible for options in the coverage, it's always a voyage of discovery to find the best blend in post.

I don't know any of your list other than the KSM 141 and I've only heard those over drums.

The Sennheisers compete with or beat anything, and are only recently going up in cost. There should be plenty used close to you, perhaps some you can even hear first. I don't think I paid more than $200 for any of the 105/105/405/406 I have, several years ago. Phantom to T power adapters are around $50 ea, if they don't have XLR's those adapters are around $30 ea. I've got a lot of SDC's, newer MKH and Neumann, and the older MKH totally compete. I did just find a pair of Neumann KM140's for under $1000US - so you may be missing a great opportunity not considering older mics, unless you just need CC or dealer financing on something new.

Never seen MKH 105 or 106 or 405 or 406 for sell used in France... Currently, there's one mic 105 for sell on ebay and it's located in US and sold for 500€ ship. included... and you must add french customs, so I'd rather go on an Austrian Audio CC8 or Shure KSM 141 according to my budget (and my utility wich is about a hobby)

 

[emrr]

All mine came to me in the US from the EU. They were not known much here, much more common there. FWIW.

 

[Emmathom]

Ok then since I just got a OM1 Line Audio pair (nice sounding !) and I'm about to build a SDC cardio pair with Superlux capsules, these two pairs should reach my goals and be sufficient... and that leads me to end searching...

I will keep my two t.bone LDC SC1100 (circuitry modified) equiped with Ari K47 flat which sound really great and resell my other mics since I don't need (nor use) more

 

[kingkorg]

Well most of you would choose SDC rather than LDC... Ok... I thought C414 would be a really good candidate since it's a to-do-all reputed mic and is great sounding (sounds great on grand piano btw).

That is true for real c414.
https://www.akg.com/on/demandware.s...wbf37457b/pdfs/AKG_C414XLS_Polar_Patterns.pdf

You can see how even real c414 is still wonky on omni. But it still has relatively consistent FR across the patterns. This is not true for WA14, which will perform much worse. Most reviews are in cardioid mode, on closeup stuff where off axis isn't that important. WA is not a reliable company. They hodgepodge stuff in order to make commercially attractive products.

 

[emrr]

oh right, Line Audio CM4. Have used the CM3. Sounds good, in my usage as an ambient concert hall pickup at the back of the room over 20 meters of cable they reveal some hiss with adequate gain. Most cases they would be much closer to the source.

 

[Emmathom]

oh right, Line Audio CM4. Have used the CM3. Sounds good, in my usage as an ambient concert hall pickup at the back of the room over 20 meters of cable they reveal some hiss with adequate gain. Most cases they would be much closer to the source.

I said I just bought an OM1 pair, omni Line Audio. Not CM4 (which btw is also a nice mic). For cardio I will adapt Superlux S502 capsules to a DIY pre circuitry housed in a DIY brass body.
I intend to resell my WA84 pair (easy to sell / people like it) as most of my LDC (except my tweaked t.bone SC1100 pair) because as I already said I need cash and I'm tired of owning gear I don't use...

2 main SDC pairs (cardio & omni) are sufficient regarding my hobby and allow me to even record both in omni and cardio at the same time (and choose later which pair I prefer). A duo made of ORTF + AB for example...

 

[k brown]

oh right, Line Audio CM4. Have used the CM3. Sounds good, in my usage as an ambient concert hall pickup at the back of the room over 20 meters of cable they reveal some hiss with adequate gain. Most cases they would be much closer to the source.

Most can't tell the difference between CM3 and CM4; he had to switch to a different but nearly identical capsule because the one used in CM3 was discontinued by Primo. Only significant difference is that the CM4 is a slightly tighter pattern.

 

[Emmathom]

Another interesting (?) ref. = Haun MBC 440
https://www.thomann.de/fr/haun_mbc_440_stereo.htm

I think it is from MBHO rebranded under Haun by Thomann

 

[MicMan]

Don't laugh - though I suppose most people will - but for this type of work my best mics ever have been, and remain (..but only available 2nd hand, as they were made only between 2006-2010, I think..) a pair of M-Audio 'Sputnik' mics.

These ARE large condenser mics, but they give that hi-mid 'sparkle' which you say you want. And great bass - absolutely flat down to 20Hz ..really!.. for cello, double bass, etc, and, as I said, that great hi-mid 'sparkle'.

HOWEVER, half of the 4 mics I bought - and a 5th which I returned - were factory wired out of phase, i.e; pins 4 & 5 inside the mic's 7-pin(?) connector were reversed, so if you do find a pair of Sputniks (around €250 each) check them against a known correctly-wired mic.

These are mains-powered 'tube' mics, so their power supplies need to be plugged into a mains (220v/240v in €urope) electricity supply, and give them half an hour to warm up properly. They don't use phantom power. But indoors, for "..classical music ensembles.." my own opinion is that they can't be beaten. Others may, of course, have entirely different opinions.

(Otherwise, depending on the size of room, size of ensembles, room echo, etc, a pair of 'no-name' Russian ..[I can't remember the name of the man who makes them..] neodymium simple chrome-tube unpowered ribbons are the most silent (no self-noise) but clear and 'sparkly' 'real-life-sounding' mics I've ever used ..and new at about €130 each.)

..As I said, "..Don't laugh".

 

[Emmathom]

Thank you @MicMan and know that I don't laugh (at you). Your opinion is interesting, even if I will get as many microphone suggestions as answers in this thread...

I think you have already suggested me the M-Audio Sputnik in another thread. I do respect your opinion and I'm sure it's a great mic for my purpose but a tube mic (in fact 2) in my recording conditions is not the best solution I guess... Imagine I need to set the pair at the end of a long boom-pole (3m or so) above the musicians : not easy to deal with the PSU's unless I set long 7 wires cable (and rebias heater & HV because of 10m long ?)

@kingkorg is convinced that LDC's multi-pattern is weird because of capsules' technology (2 diaphgrams on a single blackplate) but @thor.zmt proposes using two LDC with 2 independant capsules single diaphram (back to back) + 2 independant circuits + 2 signal outputs which offer great combinations at mix... and agree with @kingkorg since it's now about 2 different single diaphragm capsules, not a double diaph. set on a unique blackplate...