Incandescent lamps

[jabe]

You said all were made overseas.

Did I?

The oven light bulbs were already being made overseas.

Guess I should've clarified "most", given this crowd. Doesn't undermine my point.

It'd be wonderful if more manufacturing returned to the US. No doubt you've a plan to make that happen without action from a government you're angry at for regulating light bulbs. Back on topic...

Readily available for now, but thanks to short-sighted authoritarian do-gooder types it won't be long.

Interesting prediction, given that brand new ovens still come with lights.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Did I?

Guess I should've clarified "most", given this crowd. Doesn't undermine my point.

It'd be wonderful if more manufacturing returned to the US. No doubt you've a plan to make that happen without action from a government you're angry at for regulating light bulbs. Back on topic...


Interesting prediction, given that brand new ovens still come with lights.

You guys sure like to argue...
===
The government has figured out that even if they can't pass new restrictive laws they can change the regulations to accomplish pretty much the same thing. They don't need to seize the tools of industry if they can just control it with overarching regulations. Several such regulatory abuses have already been reversed by SCOTUS but they keep coming.

JR

 

[sahib]

I do not mean to turn this into do-gooder bashing but at the same time here is the proof oft he pudding.

As Murphy's law dictated, immediately after my last post one of the LED bulbs in our kitchen went dim. Nothing wrong with the LEDs. The whole cluster is fine but the LEDs dimmed. I would guess that the switching element or the biasing circuitry has gone kaput and there is not enough current through the LEDs.

Here the clear plastic protective case is removed.



The clusters are so finely soldered that the one in the middle came-off immediately. The one on the right is still attached to the driver circuitry which is enclosed inside the totem pole.



To get to the driver circuitry I had to break the totem pole which was epoxy glued to the base.



This is one side of the circuitry. The large resistor is in series with the bridge rectifier for crude current limiting.



This is the other side. The cheap-sh*t driver circuitry has failed, but rest assured they used 105C electrolytic. Thank goodness for that.



Now here is the argument..

There was absolutely nothing wrong with the LED clusters. I am an electronics engineer who is good at fixing things and obsessed with recycling, but even I can't fix it, as as soon as you rip the clusters off the totem-pole the LEDs start to pop off and they are not solderable. Yes, it is under warranty and I can send it back as I always keep the purchase receipts/invoices, but do an average person does that? How many people keep supermarket receipts for four months let alone 5 years? Even if it was returned to the manufacturer, will they fix it and put it back in the market? Will that be financially viable? So, this thing is destined to go into a landfill.

It cost me three times more than a tungsten filament bulb at the least. Keeping the profit margins aside, clearly it used more energy and natural resources, and created more waste to be manufactured. (think about the number of materials used).

Aaand, it is not recyclable. Don't believe in the theory that somehow it will be crushed into dust and re-incarnate as caster sugar back into our kitchens. Ain't gonna happen.

As I mentioned before, I am absolutely not denying the theoretical energy efficiency of the product itself, but how about the practice? But when you bring up these points you get shouted down as a climate denier. Why? Because it does not fit in the fashion narrative.

 

[JohnRoberts]

We (I) forget how short the service life of incandescent lamps are. We routinely kept a store of replacement bulbs and in a house with enough bulbs it seemed like there was always one burning out somewhere. There is a reason they sold IC bulbs in packages of four.

I wouldn't mind if we just skipped the CFL bridge technology between IC and LED lighting. CFLs suck and I only still use them for specialty lights (like UVC for disinfecting stuff).

Early LEDs were not born perfect, I had my share of failures with early LED lamps, but they seem to have worked out their infant technology problems. They are now cheaper and I can't remember my last LED bulb failure (of course since writing this I need to be on the lookout ).

I have even replaced my handful of fluorescent lamp fixtures with LEDs.

JR

PS: I just did another web search for far UVc LEDs... It looks like these are still in development but not ready for prime time yet. I remain optimistic.

 

[jabe]

Aaand, it is not recyclable.

Neither are incandescent bulbs, though. The materials in them would be recyclable if they weren't tied up in a light bulb.

I am absolutely not denying the theoretical energy efficiency of the product itself, but how about the practice?

A perfectly valid consideration, but the overarching question isn't whether LED bulbs have environmental drawbacks -- no one denies that -- but whether those drawbacks are outweighed by the advantages.

 

[sahib]

Neither are incandescent bulbs, though. The materials in them would be recyclable if they weren't tied up in a light bulb.

Do you know what recyclable means?

A perfectly valid consideration, but the overarching question isn't whether LED bulbs have environmental drawbacks -- no one denies that -- but whether those drawbacks are outweighed by the advantages.

And the answer is?

 

[sahib]

We (I) forget how short the service life of incandescent lamps are. We routinely kept a store of replacement bulbs and in a house with enough bulbs it seemed like there was always one burning out somewhere. There is a reason they sold IC bulbs in packages of four.

I wouldn't mind if we just skipped the CFL bridge technology between IC and LED lighting. CFLs suck and I only still use them for specialty lights (like UVC for disinfecting stuff).

Early LEDs were not born perfect, I had my share of failures with early LED lamps, but they seem to have worked out their infant technology problems. They are now cheaper and I can't remember my last LED bulb failure (of course since writing this I need to be on the lookout ).

I have even replaced my handful of fluorescent lamp fixtures with LEDs.

JR

PS: I just did another web search for far UVc LEDs... It looks like these are still in development but not ready for prime time yet. I remain optimistic.

It is not that I disagree. But I am still trying to understand if the energy savings made outweighs the pollution caused. Also for industrial use too.

Anyhow, the kitchen lights will be a good test in the long run. Otherwise, as I mentioned before the light output is exactly the same.

 

[JohnRoberts]

It is not that I disagree. But I am still trying to understand if the energy savings made outweighs the pollution caused. Also for industrial use too.

another consideration for consumer lighting was power factor. IC lights are generally considered resistive loads while the early CFL lamps used simple rectified internal supplies. While the current was still roughly in phase with the voltage the peak current was much higher resulting in higher IxR losses. This was tolerated because the higher efficiency of the fluorescent lamps meant lower total current draw overall. Did I mention I don't like CFLs.

I expect the modern LED controllers perform some crude PFC (power factor correction). This matters because mains distribution would need heavier wiring to support widespread consumer lighting with lousy power factor.

Anyhow, the kitchen lights will be a good test in the long run. Otherwise, as I mentioned before the light output is exactly the same.

My kitchen lamp is inside a glass globe. The heat build up inside the globe was such that CFL lamps did not last very long. The LED bulb inside it now has survived several years already.

JR

 

[jabe]

Do you know what recyclable means?

Ask your recycling company if they take incandescent light bulbs. Being theoretically "recyclable" means nothing if hardly anyone will actually do it.

And the answer is?

You tell me. I'm not the one mad about light bulbs.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Don't bring more heat to a discussion about lighting....

JR

 

[sahib]

Ask your recycling company if they take incandescent light bulbs. Being theoretically "recyclable" means nothing if hardly anyone will actually do it.

Well, I did not use the word theoretical. In contrary I said that the tungsten filament (or incandescent) bulbs were pretty much 100% recyclable, which they are. The material content consists of glass, tungsten filament, copper allow connection wires, brass screw/bayonet and resin. Very very easy to recycle.

You tell me. I'm not the one mad about light bulbs.

I don`t know. I was hoping you would tell me. But it turns out we both don't know. Though, I do not know where you got that I was mad about light bulbs. But I'll take it as a compliment.

..................

My kitchen lamp is inside a glass globe. The heat build up inside the globe was such that CFL lamps did not last very long. The LED bulb inside it now has survived several years already.

JR

That is a very good result.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Ask your recycling company if they take incandescent light bulbs. Being theoretically "recyclable" means nothing if hardly anyone will actually do it.

You missed the entire point about the quantity and quality of the waste.

Dead incandescent: Thin glass enclusure, tungsten filament, steel, brass, and a small amount of epoxy/glue. Nothing toxic or expensive/rare save the tungsten.

Dead LED: several LEDs (GaN substrate doped with things like arsenic, cerium doped YAG crystals to convert UV to visible yellow-white), driver circuit with semiconductors, resistor, capacitor, aluminum heat sink, various plastics, and brass and steel base. LED and semiconductor manufacturing is energy intensive. It requires lots of nasty chemicals and various rare materials to produce these devices.

You tell me. I'm not the one mad about light bulbs.

We are telling you. Top-down mandates have unintended consequences. Gov bureaucrats are mostly ignorant of the realities of manufacturing, supply chain management, or any other inconveniences that affect business. But they make up for it with hubris and raw power.

 

[Matador]

As I mentioned before, I am absolutely not denying the theoretical energy efficiency of the product itself, but how about the practice? But when you bring up these points you get shouted down as a climate denier. Why? Because it does not fit in the fashion narrative.

No, it's just not all the story.

In order to energize all of those incandescent lights, you need (at least) 10x the energy output. Burning fossil fuels releases: uranium, thorium, arsenic, lead, thallium, mercury, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen, etc. It's not just the cost of production, you have to examine the entire life cycle from conception to disposal, and all of the energy inputs in-between.

You also neglected lifespan: on average LED's last considerably longer for the same light output, and are vastly more shock resistant. The standard longevity factor is about 20x, meaning you are comparing a single LED bulb with 20 incandescent ones.

This report tries to calculate the various inputs, etc.

http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.org.in/files/OSRAM_LED_LCA_Summary_November_2009.pdf

 

[AnalogPackrat]

No, it's just not all the story.

In order to energize all of those incandescent lights, you need (at least) 10x the energy output.

No, it's more like 5-8x depending on bulb. The ones that claim the higher multiple run the LEDs harder which reduces their lifespan (and likely that of the other components in the assembly).

Burning fossil fuels releases: uranium, thorium, arsenic, lead, thallium, mercury, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen, etc. It's not just the cost of production, you have to examine the entire life cycle from conception to disposal, and all of the energy inputs in-between.

Thankfully, my state has 50-60% of electric demand supplied by nuclear.

You also neglected lifespan: on average LED's last considerably longer for the same light output, and are vastly more shock resistant. The standard longevity factor is about 20x, meaning you are comparing a single LED bulb with 20 incandescent ones.

LEDs themselves can last 50-100k hours. The assembled bulb units are limited by other failure modes including electrolytic caps, fragile wiring, and considerable temperature cycling stress of the components and mechanical-electrical assembly. I've had several fail within a year (with at most a few hundred hours use).

Using soft-start dimmers can extend incandescent lifetime by 2x or more in my experience. In reality the lifetime of these things is overstated, especially for the cheaper LED bulbs. CFL lifetimes were grossly overstated.

This report tries to calculate the various inputs, etc.

http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.org.in/files/OSRAM_LED_LCA_Summary_November_2009.pdf

Interesting, but doesn't take into account the ballast components. Extraction requirements comparison not included.

The big flaw is that the paper uses 40W incandescent as the basis for comparison. I don't know about you, but I rarely use anything less than 60W and have a good number of 75 and 100W (incandescent equivalent) bulbs.

Why does this matter? Because the only difference between a 40w and 100w incandescent is the filament and it's support(s). The total manufacturing cost and resulting waste stream input is virtually the same for a 40W and 100W incandescent. But a 100W LED bulb needs 2.5x the LEDs, a beefier ballast, and a bigger heatsink which requires proportionately more production input and energy. And there's that pesky 2.5x heat dissipation in the same physical envelope and that means more heat stress and shorter life. So at more commonly used wattages, the LEDs don't have nearly as big an advantage.

I could go on. Yes, LEDs are superior to CFLs. They are a fine alternative in many use cases. Most people were already adopting them to reduce their power bill. Mandates are not required and have unintended negative consequences.

 

[Tubetec]

The newest electrical wiring code here allows for thinner diameter conductors in the lighting wiring .
Used be 1.5mm2 now its down to 1mm2 .

So if you count up the real lifespan of the bulb and the cost of prodution and disposal in environmental terms it doesnt look anywhere near as good as what weve been 'led' to believe

Suppose millions of tons of Leds end up polluting the environment and causes health problems , how do we ***** the costs of that before we blunder ahead and cause another environmental catastrophe ?
Is this whole Green thing just kicking the can down the road and bringing in a new set of environmental and health impacts further on ? solar panels contain similar noxious compounds to led lamps .
Sounds like someone is playing the short game , burning the candle at both ends but trying to convince us were doing good for the environment . The truth of the matter could very well up being the exact opposite ,where millions die of poisoning or suffer reproductive damage from chemical exposure .

The spin doctors that tell politicians what to think are bound up inextricably with big energy/chemical and tech , they want more power to run data centres and industry , with the domestic customer paying a disproportionatly high price into the future to subsidise it .
Irelands energy stats were published recently , energy usage relating to transport was up 6% on the year pre covid , any increases in effenciency due to retrofitting homes is dwarfed , bottom line is were continuing to consume more than ever before , not less .

Sahibs breaking down of the lightbulb highlights the danger ,
once the plastic cover is off the LEDs are exposed , there not encapsulated ,
the heat has caused the solder to weaken to the point the components fall off .

Again look at the market for led mood lighting , back in the day you got the usual encapsulated plastic leds , nowadays this , the moment that hits land fill the nasty gets out into the environment in powder form ,
Its hazardous waste waiting to happen , how can this even remotely pass as environmentally friendly , if a led bulb of that sort breaks in a domestic environment you would surely need to be carefull about cleaning it up ,
Likewise theres a code of practice that went along with CFL bulbs that no one was told about , that is if one breaks ,you need to vacate the room ,opening all windows and doors and give any chemicals in the air a chance to disperse , before cleaning up .

 

[living sounds]

The bottom line is: Don't buy cheap LED lamps/bulbs, buy quality ones. They last so long that they may be installed in places that are not easily accessible and won't have to be for very long times. We thus had them on a very high ceiling, and now everywhere in the house, zero failures. When I was a kid my father was changing incandescents all the time. And we all know what pieces of crap the CFL bulbs were.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I have been buying cheap LED lamps and haven't had many failures. Most failures were early when LED lamps were still new. It seems like they have it sorted now.

JR

 

[living sounds]

I have been buying cheap LED lamps and haven't had many failures. Most failures were early when LED lamps were still new. It seems like they have it sorted now.

JR

Even better.

 

[fazer]

I put these foldout LEDS in the Barn where there were some Mercury lights. They work really well. Something like 5000 lumens. The color temp is 5000, I prefer 2700 but for the barn/shop its great. Must be cheaper to operate than a mercury light. I also retired my 4 and 8 ft CFL’s with Led replacement tubes. No more audible noise. I haven’t noticed more noise when I plug in a guitar and play but I’m not recording out there yet. The only thing I miss is the IC reveal bulbs with the nice pink/white glow on an end table in the living room. Just had a better ambience IMO.

The toxic nature of LEDs are something else to deal with. I have had a few failures with fixtures in the house from previous owners installed. As mentioned above the color temp is important to me but I’m a boomer. Growing up with IC make me adverse to a 5K temp bulb but my realtor pointed out that Gen X and millennials prefer the white light so I changed bulbs in the house I sold back in 2020.

 

[sahib]

No, it's just not all the story.

In order to energize all of those incandescent lights, you need (at least) 10x the energy output. Burning fossil fuels releases: uranium, thorium, arsenic, lead, thallium, mercury, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen, etc. It's not just the cost of production, you have to examine the entire life cycle from conception to disposal, and all of the energy inputs in-between.

You also neglected lifespan: on average LED's last considerably longer for the same light output, and are vastly more shock resistant. The standard longevity factor is about 20x, meaning you are comparing a single LED bulb with 20 incandescent ones.

This report tries to calculate the various inputs, etc.

http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.org.in/files/OSRAM_LED_LCA_Summary_November_2009.pdf

Analog Packrat seems to have responded on my behalf and I will try not to repeat the points he picked up.

However, as you have also said it is indeed not the whole story, as that is a very light weight and pleasingly written report. There are good entry level information and I actually have saved it, but it does not go nowhere deep enough. Particularly end of life cycle. How much energy is used in incinerating the waste? I am not talking about only the fuel for the furnaces here but the peripheral support to incineration. Sifting, sorting, vehicles, offices, staff, maintenance and so on.

A big however, the report claims;

' The life cycle assessment proves that LED lamps are amongst the most environmentally friendly lighting products '.

Really? We shall see that.

Just to state again that I am not questioning the energy efficiency here. I am not that stupid. I am merely trying to discuss whether the amount of energy we save is worth the amount of waste generated. Otherwise, I certainly save from my energy costs and somebody else also makes money from it. But are we really saving the planet?

I'll continue with my example. If I had time I would put it into spread sheet with graphs and fancy language, and pretend that I know something but I won't. So, here is something in layman's terms.

The tungsten filament bulb on the left is 40W and the LED bulb on the right gives equal light but rated at 5W. So, as I mentioned before it is supposed to have consumed 8 times less energy. This is what the label says on the packaging and not necessarily the truth. On the other hand the Osram report gives a rating of 8W for the same light output. So more like 5 times the energy saving. But it really does not matter. I'd like to concentrate on the number and type of materials used in each bulb type, hence the use of natural resources, and end of life cycle. Also to mention that this is a quick comparison. So, allow a bit of give and take on the figures quoted.



The materials used for the tungsten filament bulb are;

1. Glass (bulb)
2. Tungsten (filament)
3. Molbydemium (support wires)
4. Copper (connecting lead wires-nckel plated)
5. Brass or aluminium (screw base)

The materials used in LED bulb are;

1. LED x 32
The type of materials used in LED are below.
Indium gallium nitride
Aluminium gallium indium phosphide
Aluminium gallium arsenide
Gallium phosphide

2. Flexible PCB for the LED cluster
3. PCB for the driver circuitry
4. TH resistor x 1
5. SMD resistor x 3
6. Electrolytic capacitor x 1
7. Driver transistor x 1
8. Bridge Rectifier
9. Copper wires
10. Plastic body
11. Clear plastic housing/lens

Now, let me direct your attention to page 11 of the report.
For the end of life cycle it assumes disposal in domestic waste hence incineration. This of course would not only be like entrusting the cat with the meat, but also to conveniently absolve the company from any responsibility.. I have not heard of any local authority, at least here in Scotland, that incinerates electronic waste. Crushed at best and dumped in landfills.

So, in the case of tungsten filament bulb, we extracted five, 100% perfectly recyclable materials from the earth. But in the case of LED bulb we extracted, all of that sh*t then incinerated the eff out of it.

????????????????????????????????

Let me get it right.

Are you still telling me that the LED lamps are amongst the most environmentally friendly lighting products?

Not only the whole natural resources went up in smoke, but what happened to the ashes? Worse, in my case we incinerated a cluster of perfectly working 32 LEDs as only the electronics failed. Isn't that a waste? I know the LED technology is advancing and will get even better. But the question still remains. Is the saving we make from energy production worth sending natural resources up in smoke?

I do not expect my case to fit into others'. But from this portion of the earth that's my point.