Interstage trafo in vari-mu circuits

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> We aren't changing the mu with the control grid voltage

Some. Never enough to be useful.

You have two problems.

You want gain to change.

And in a compressor or limiter, you want minimum gain at maximum output.

But minimum gain means minimum current.

So on one hand, we want to approach Power Matched condition at minimum current and gain. And as the plot NYDave showed shows, this suggests a load like 20K or more. Which gets you into high inductance for bass, and stray capacitance treble troubles.

Also, if it is Power Matched at minimum gain and current, then it is mismatched at higher current, and gain hardly changes as current changes. For 6386 at 240V and 20K load, at 25mA the gain is about 15 and at 5mA the gain is about 10. And we get that much change mostly because the 6386 really does change Mu from 20 to 5.

An alternative is to match at max gain and let it go mis-matched at low gain. 3K load gives gain=7 at 25mA and gain=1.5 at 5mA. Better, but still only 13dB GR. We'd want to push down to say 2mA where gain will be (squint) 0.6, 21dB GR. So the load impedance should be as low as or lower than the max-current plate impedance.

But now look at the low gain high output condition. 1mA current in 3K is 3V and 3mW peak at high distortion (even doubled in push-pull). Taking 10dB headroom we have 1V and 0.3mW peak output. If we want to apply 20dB GR and get an 80dB dynamic range signal, the noise floor at plate must be 100dB below 1V. With 14dB of no-GR gain, that's 114dB re:1V or 2 microVolts at the grid. That's a low noise number for a hot-cathode device. And the 6386 is far better than most tubes.

I like to estimate the unbalanced DC "could be" 20% of the maximum current, and will happen around half current or around 3dB GR. If you use the limiter as a safety fudge, tapping just a few dB GR fairly frequently, the unbalance thumps could be bothersome. Not so much for the iron, because E-I cores comfortable for 25mA balanced DC will usually tolerate 2.5mA unbalanced DC. If you have a crate of tubes you could tediously select better-matched pairs.

I have a feeling the core should be big enough to work the GR tube as a Power Amplifier with low THD down below 50Hz. That may mean a lot of iron even for miniature tubes. Edcor does have a good pound/$ ratio. At the lower impedances, a big hunk of ordinary iron is probably better than a small chunk of magic iron.

Input noise is a function of Gm. We want low Gm for high grid signals and high Gm for low noise. The real answer is to find "bad" tubes, which have high current for moderate Gm, so when we push them to lower current we still have lots of current to make lots of max output. 6L6 comes to mind, but nobody seems to be that heroic. Of the not-so-insane schemes, 12AU7 working near 120VDC with a 10KCT 2W winding should beat some meat without much stink, and at stupid low cost.

A figure of merit might be to take the spec-sheet's boast condition and figure I/Gm. That gives a voltage. In fact it is the maximum input voltage for low GR and high THD. You need to derate for low THD, and derate some more for the amount of GR you will need, but these factors tend to be the same for all tubes. However I/Gm is a figure of DE-merit for amplifiers. Tube designers spent 50 years trying to improve Gm/I, meaning I/Gm got worse. Some of the oldest tubes may be the "best". Of the modern sort, 12AU7 is a sloppy job and "better" for our purpose than 12AX7 or 6DJ8.

High plate voltage improves maximum grid voltage. However we normally idle near zero grid, and most tubes will burn-up if plate voltage is set high. High plate voltage also means high control voltage and heroic sidechain. On some tubes the plot of I/Gm is S-shape, and the best part is below the inflection. Gm falls faster than I. That's a secret of the 660. Then you idle at significant negative grid voltage, and can run high plate voltage. In any case, high plate dissipation is good. (Again 6L6 comes to mind.)

The secondary side depends what you want for an output amp. The 660 parallels ~3mW pairs to get a "Pro" power on 600 ohms, but it is hard work with little headroom. If you want a 1-stage output buffer, you may need to step-up the 1V-3V plate level to the output grids. If you go voltamp poweramp, you want to match for noise, and 10K:10K is not bad for 6386, but 10K:2K may be better for less beefy tubes to get plate resistance stepped down below grid noise resistance.

Note that the Vari-Gu input must run at high idle current for good max-output performance. This means it may be the lowest grid-noise stage in your studio (though push-pull works against that). It might be that the best place for the gain cell is at the mike, right after a fairly low-ratio transformer. Or maybe no tranny: the 660's four-pair input has a noise resistance near 300 ohms, which is quieter than many condensers, and not a lot higher than some dynamics. In many low-buck studios, room noise may mask mike and tube noise. You'd have to float the mike guts at CV level, and make Phantom follow it.... a transformer may be useful.

But putting a Vari-Gu cell after any other amplifier, you just about have to have a loss.
 
normal_FinalB%7E0.JPG


Heroic CV amp, driving the grids well beyond 130V, actually most of what PRR professes has already been implemented here. In fact I had to wind my own trannies to make some things possible. And yes it crushes....without thumps, courtesy of a little extra stuffing in the cathode circuit.
PRR you are mostly correct considering you are working with a lot of theory, but actual experimentation proves a few surprises.

analag
 
Wow, thanks for the info.

Ill have to to my math before ordering my interstage transformer.
But at a first glance a 10K:10K Edcor doesnt seem so bad for what ive got in mind. But then again maybe not.
I see the point made about VCA "anode noise".


Im gonna use a telefunken ECC189 as the control element here. Ill have to study the datasheet in depht, before making a final decision regarding transformer ratio.
The output amp..................hmm.............that will have to be beefy enough to pump some current through the rectifiers as well as driving the output.

ECC83 into ECC99, NFB...........should work for relativly fast attack times.
 
prr, wow, thanks - again one of your great posts!

kit, i have a edcor 10k:10k here and measured the inductance - it´s 8 henry per side, and i´m not sure if it works perfect in that application.

also the dc-symmetry of one one-coil center tab is not very good (120 vs 160 ohm)

sowter´s 9100 interstage has 300 henry and two identical coils, just to give you an idea:
http://www.sowter.co.uk/2is.htm
 
dcr mismatch is common, finding out it can actually be a good thing, slightly offsets the core, so the mid point of the BH curve is above or below the zero flux line.
i do not know why they like to get out of being symetrical, but the books are on order.
 
Max,

I've measured several Edcors and that number seems low. Which model is it? Did you measure the entire primary or only half? (I'm not sure what you mean by "per side").

In my experiments, I have used an Edcor 10K:10K as a vari-mu interstage with good results. But the circuit was tweaked to suit, I didn't just drop it into an existing circuit.
 
dave, can you provide a link to your vary mu? i remember it was somewhere, but where?

per side = entire primary/secondary , not tab, and it is the smaller modell i tested (wsm 10k:10k)
 
[quote author="Kit"]Im gonna use a telefunken ECC189 as the control element here. Ill have to study the datasheet in depht, before making a final decision regarding transformer ratio.
The output amp..................hmm.............that will have to be beefy enough to pump some current through the rectifiers as well as driving the output.

ECC83 into ECC99, NFB...........should work for relativly fast attack times.[/quote]

Share the schemo, won't you? If the topology is anything like the Altec thing...it gonna be slooowww.
icon_mrgreen.gif
so slow.

analag
 
DR resistance asymmetry is very common. In some older antique gear PP output trans can be so far off you think they're damaged until you start comparing multiple units.

Dave, do you mean the Henries sound low, or the DC measurement? I am remembering some high variances in DC measurement in diffferent batches. I had 16 of them, from two different winding batches and there were discrepancies. Wish I'd kept notes now.
 
[quote author="emrr"]DR resistance asymmetry is very common. [/quote]

its just a matter of fact when you simpy wind the second half over the first half of the entire winding. if you have two coils either stacked as the sowter or seperated on a UI core you can have better symmetry.
 
Max,

I never published the circuit, although there was a thread where I talked about the early phases of its development.

Doug,

I meant, the inductance sounds low. As for DCR, ~200 ohms seems about right IIRC. I'll have to check my notes, if I can find 'em!

All: I don't think it's fair to compare a $9-$12 Edcor to a Sowter which probably costs a lot more. :wink:

EDIT: A-ha! I found them!

WSM10K/10K:
Primary Z @ 20Hz with unloaded secondary: 12.2K (98H)
Pri. DCR: 256 Ohms
Sec. DCR: 277 Ohms

XSM10K/10K:
Primary Z @ 20Hz with unloaded secondary: 12.7K (102H)
Pri. DCR: 227 Ohms
Sec. DCR: 225 Ohms

Also, Doug: Were the big DCR variances in WSM600/600, by any chance? I remember that Brian Roth posted once about getting some pieces of that model with too-high DCR (which should be on the order of 40 ohms or so). He called the factory and they told him that they had changed the # of turns to get more primary L as per a customer's request. He pointed out that in a real 600-ohm circuit, the insertion loss would be excessive. I have no idea if they changed back.
 
[quote author="NewYorkDave"]Also, Doug: Were the big DCR variances in WSM600/600, by any chance? I remember that Brian Roth posted once about getting some pieces of that model with too-high DCR (which should be on the order of 40 ohms or so). He called the factory and they told him that they had changed the # of turns to get more primary L as per a customer's request. He pointed out that in a real 600-ohm circuit, the insertion loss would be excessive. I have no idea if they changed back.[/quote]

I believe that's right, though the pieces I ordered were two batches fairly close together, about a year back. Which I think is well after Brian's experience. Could be wrong.
 
GE6386-XferCurves.jpg


I remember threads dedicated to disproving the authenticity of these hand drawn data curves. If this is so, how can we make serious calculations based on them. I think running a curvetracer on some of those tubes might present some difference.

analag
 
Basically, the story is that the curves down near the bottom of the plate current scale are usually only approximations. People who try to work the tubes down in those regions may very well find experimental data disagreeing with the curves. PRR expounded on this, IIRC.

Larrchild has run 6386s on a curve tracer. I remember a while back, he posted some screen shots of 6386 vs. triode-wired 6BA6.
 
I still think plate chokes on the first stage to load the mu tubes correctly and cap coupling to the 2nd stage would sound better than an interstage xfmr in a 2 stage unit.
Did we ever try that?
I know we did with preamps.
Seems to be more an issue of loading the plate, than transferring audio thru iron, since it's 1:1 anyway.
And the CMRR-choking DC shift that plate resistors create would be lessened, as in an interstage xfmr.


The CCS sand-crew will now speak, lol.
 

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