Is there a common cause for rising antisemitism and historic racism?

[JohnRoberts]

One thing I do agree with is that the two party system seems to have run its course. It's too similar to sports at this point, at least for those of us sitting in the bleachers.

At some point one or the other political party will lose power due to misreading the voter's sentiment.

For those old enough to remember the 1968 democratic convention in Chicago, this year's is also in Chicago. History does not repeat but sometimes it rhymes. This could be another interesting one.

Good luck to us all, and again sorry about the veer. This political difficulty is perhaps another symptom of the malaise I am curious about.

JR

 

[sodderboy]

So far "AI" is exactly the same as the kids with the mariachis, GIGO. AI is not going to be a cool guru but rather a führer, given the people raising it.

The OT "problem" IMHO is the same ingredient as soylent green. Without folks' mass individual realization of any higher power than themselves,
hate and greed will rule.
Mike

 

[living sounds]

I was with you until I read the proposed changes to the US government. I didn't immediately understand the use of "we" and "us". Perhaps a cut and paste quote from Maxwell Stearns, professor at the University of Maryland Carey School of Law, explores this issue in his book, “Parliamentary America: The Least Radical Means of Radically Repairing Our Broken Democracy.”

Yes, that was a quote. I added the ">> <<" but these probably were not sufficient.

And his idea is for a gradual change that will work to transform the system because and not cause resistance. Pretty clever.

I do not think this is OT, but part of the solution.

 

[living sounds]

Without folks' mass individual realization of any higher power than themselves, hate and greed will rule.

A higher power... like government of/by/for the people? If you mean religion is the answer, then I would say that plenty of countries have been doing very well with very little religiosity. And lot's of hateful and greedy things have been done in history in the name of a "higher power"...

 

[sodderboy]

Just like uranium or doped silicon, its what WE do with it.

ITS PEOPLE!

Gaw blessya, I mean You blessya!

 

[AnalogPackrat]

A higher power... like government of/by/for the people? If you mean religion is the answer, then I would say that plenty of countries have been doing very well with very little religiosity. And lot's of hateful and greedy things have been done in history in the name of a "higher power"...

And democide has a body count of at least 40M in the last century, likely higher. Government isn't the solution to every problem, it is a necessary tradeoff for civil society and one that must be kept in check (and kept as small as is practicable). This is where the US system has failed. Our government has been given (and has assumed) more power and authority than is necessary.

 

[jabe]

It goes back to the Romans and Greeks and before. In antiquity it was common to enslave people deemed inferior or barbarian. Not much has changed.

Indeed. My question was about the seeming conflict of "rising" and "historic" in the title.

 

[living sounds]

And democide has a body count of at least 40M in the last century, likely higher. Government isn't the solution to every problem, it is a necessary tradeoff for civil society and one that must be kept in check (and kept as small as is practicable). This is where the US system has failed. Our government has been given (and has assumed) more power and authority than is necessary.

And it has been captured by special interests to a significant extent.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

And it has been captured by special interests to a significant extent.

I don't disagree with that. Your proposed cures don't fix that and cause other problems as well. I would add that the reason "special interests" want to capture gov is precisely because it has so much (too much) power and authority.

 

[Matador]

My question was about the seeming conflict of "rising" and "historic" in the title.

You can just replace "rising" with "starting on January 20, 2021", and "historic" with "during Democratic administrations".

 

[living sounds]

I don't disagree with that. Your proposed cures don't fix that and cause other problems as well. I would add that the reason "special interests" want to capture gov is precisely because it has so much (too much) power and authority.

Well, the proposal comes from someone far more knowledgable in that realm than myself (or probably anyone here). It seems very plausible that this can cure some of the specific disfunctions. A gradual transformation has been shown to work better than radical change. It's likely to enhance voter participation, which in turn can introduce the changes necessary to get rid of the corrupting influences.

What is your solution?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Well, the proposal comes from someone far more knowledgable in that realm than myself (or probably anyone here). It seems very plausible that this can cure some of the specific disfunctions. A gradual transformation has been shown to work better than radical change. It's likely to enhance voter participation, which in turn can introduce the changes necessary to get rid of the corrupting influences.

What is your solution?

The constitution is written to allow gradual change via amendment.
=====
I do not believe that government is the solution for everything, and agree that it should be reduced in size/power.

JR

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Well, the proposal comes from someone far more knowledgable in that realm than myself (or probably anyone here). It seems very plausible that this can cure some of the specific disfunctions. A gradual transformation has been shown to work better than radical change. It's likely to enhance voter participation, which in turn can introduce the changes necessary to get rid of the corrupting influences.

What is your solution?

Reduce the size of government, namely executive branch bureaucratic administrations.

Pass legislation or amend the Constitution as required to explicitely outline corporations' lefal status (e.g. not a person, not a citizen).

Amend the Constitution to provide meaningful consequences for elected and unelected government employees who violate the rights of citizens. If legislation is passed (at any level) that is found to violate the Constitution, legislators who sponsored, authored, and voted for it should be removed from office and banned from public service for life. Same for executives who sign it into law or lower court judges who ruled to allow it.

Edit to add:

Census should count everyone, but only citizens and legal permanent residents should count toward representation.

 

[ruffrecords]

The good thing about proportional representation is it leads almost inevitably to coalitions which have the useful effect of watering down the more extreme policies.

Cheers

Ian

 

[JohnRoberts]

The good thing about proportional representation is it leads almost inevitably to coalitions which have the useful effect of watering down the more extreme policies.

Our founders studied numerous forms of government that went before their grand experiment.

Cheers

Ian

https://www.history.com/news/founding-fathers-political-parties-opinion

The framers of the new Constitution desperately wanted to avoid the divisions that had ripped England apart in the bloody civil wars of the 17th century. Many of them saw parties—or “factions,” as they called them—as corrupt relics of the monarchical British system that they wanted to discard in favor of a truly democratic government.

“It was not that they didn’t think of parties,” says Willard Sterne Randall, professor emeritus of history at Champlain College and biographer of six of the Founding Fathers. “Just the idea of a party brought back bitter memories to some of them.”

My judgement is that there are not any easy answers or perfect systems to emulate. That said we have lots of room for improvement.

JR

PS: Sorry about feeding this veer

 

[living sounds]

Reduce the size of government, namely executive branch bureaucratic administrations.

What would be the mechanism to get there? Every administration has increased the size of government. And with increasing global tensions a reduction of the military-industrial complex (by what means exactly?) with jobs at stake in every state seems rather phantasical...

Pass legislation or amend the Constitution as required to explicitely outline corporations' lefal status (e.g. not a person, not a citizen).

How would that come about? Your preferred party generally is of the opionion that "corporations are people", and the other side doesn't have the numbers for it (especially not of non-captured legislators).

Amend the Constitution to provide meaningful consequences for elected and unelected government employees who violate the rights of citizens. If legislation is passed (at any level) that is found to violate the Constitution, legislators who sponsored, authored, and voted for it should be removed from office and banned from public service for life. Same for executives who sign it into law or lower court judges who ruled to allow it.

I am not as optimistic about this and think about unintented consequences of bad actors, corporate lawyers and others. I do think they would wreak extreme havoc and weaking the effectiveness of government further. Disfunctional governements can be inspected in places like Haiti or Somalia, I doubt that this would be a preferable outcome once the consequences hit you...

 

[JohnRoberts]

What would be the mechanism to get there? Every administration has increased the size of government. And with increasing global tensions a reduction of the military-industrial complex (by what means exactly?) with jobs at stake in every state seems rather phantasical...

reduce the budget and they can't afford all the bureaucrats. This is easier said than done. Both parties spend like drunk sailors.

How would that come about? Your preferred party generally is of the opionion that "corporations are people", and the other side doesn't have the numbers for it (especially not of non-captured legislators).

Probably be tested in SCOTUS case(s). I am not aware of formal party positions while that can change with a favorable breeze to raise campaign funds.

I am not as optimistic about this and think about unintented consequences of bad actors, corporate lawyers and others. I do think they would wreak extreme havoc and weaking the effectiveness of government further. Disfunctional governements can be inspected in places like Haiti or Somalia, I doubt that this would be a preferable outcome once the consequences hit you...

Haiti is an example of no government or street criminal (mob) rule.

Somalia looks like war lords, they may even have a parliament , but these days controlled by Iran backed terrorists.

JR

 

[cyrano]

Yeah, it's simple. All those backed by Iran are terrorists. Those backed by Syria are... And what about all the lies that have been sold to the Kurds? Weren't these allies?

That leaves us with Saudi Arabia and Israel. Friends or foes? But, more interestingly, why?

The Saudis used to be a clear case. It was a useful ally in Opec. But these days? They're still allowed to shoot Yemenites fleeing over the border. And murder journalists...

Israel must be very important, as they are allowed to exterminate Palestinians without any distinction between children, women, civilians or armed resistance. As long as we don't call it genocide, it's OK. I suppose Israel is needed to manipulate elections if needed...

Doesn't seem so simple...

 

[AnalogPackrat]

What would be the mechanism to get there?

The House of Representatives has the power of the purse. Budgets largely determine the size of agencies. Start cutting.

Every administration has increased the size of government.

False. Size of fed gov fell from 1990-2000.

And with increasing global tensions a reduction of the military-industrial complex (by what means exactly?) with jobs at stake in every state seems rather phantasical...

"Global tensions" have been caused by poor government to a significant degree. I'm not one who believes more of that is the solution. I see a good bit of economic growth in my state (not related to defense). Smaller government lowers the tax burden on everyone which has a positive impact on the economy.

How would that come about? Your preferred party generally is of the opionion that "corporations are people", and the other side doesn't have the numbers for it (especially not of non-captured legislators).

Both parties are rolling in corporate donations, but the overall donations skew D. Look it up. I don't hear Democrats advocating for this, either. It's going to take more voting citizens demanding it.

I am not as optimistic about this and think about unintented consequences of bad actors, corporate lawyers and others.

What alternatives are there? Socialist revolution?

I do think they would wreak extreme havoc and weaking the effectiveness of government further. Disfunctional governements can be inspected in places like Haiti or Somalia, I doubt that this would be a preferable outcome once the consequences hit you...

Ridiculous analogy. Reas the history of Haiti to see what happened there.

What I've proposed is much less fantastical than some magical "gradual" shifting of the foundational tenets of our government to a European style parliamentary system (which doesn't seem to have prevented trouble there, BTW). Our problem is not our Constitution, but that we've not followed it (and the People have allowed politicians to abdicate their responsibilities/duties leading to the explosion of bureaucratic tyranny).

 

[AnalogPackrat]

As usual with computers, the problem tends to be "user error".

The people creating AI systems aren't the user. They are the "engineers" who created a broken mess because they allowed their feelings to supplant logic and reason. They threw away decades of basic computer engineering and science because they think they know better. GIGO, KISS, and all the rest ignored. Dangerous idiots.