Lang PEQ-2A clone...RESURRECTED

[abechap024]

You Rock Mark!
Good stuff!

 

[creal]

yes Mark, tanks for the shoot

 

[damnyankee]

Cool, why not get them to quote on the full monty. All the transformers are Freed's.

I've got photo's of the guts of my Lang that I'll post shortly. What you will see is that the entire EQ network is contained inside the Freed's, nothing outside except switches, pots & wire for the most part.

Mark

Hi Mark,

Thanks for ALL the pics!

Secondly, I'll be happy to get a quote for the other 3 trafos; I just assumed everyone would to go with a modern power supply and I/O trafos like cinemag or lundahls.

DY

 

[Biasrocks]

You're welcome.

We could easily get by without the PT, but the I/O iron would certainly get us closer to goal. It may help to bring down the overall price for the EQ networks.

Mark

 

[damnyankee]

After reviewing the rear of Mark's Lang, I think we have a hurdle to clear:

The manual (which has the schemo) states the part numbers for the Freed High/Low EQ Networks are Freed #37727 and #37744 (which are the inductors what I asked for in the quote) however, Mark's unit uses Freed #38831 and #38832.

Thoughts...????

DY

 

[mitsos]

serial numbers? There is a unit on ebay right now with numbers 40588 and 40589.

Anyone at this point contact Lang Amps and see what they charge for one of these?

 

[Biasrocks]

The manual (which has the schemo) states the part numbers for the Freed High/Low EQ Networks are Freed #37727 and #37744 (which are the inductors what I asked for in the quote) however, Mark's unit uses Freed #38831 and #38832.

The mystery deepens.  ;D

My unit is an early 2A, #859.

http://sharktankpro.com/GDIY/LANG/LangPeq-19.jpg

There were PEQ-2's as well. Perhaps the parts # changed when they went to the "A" version.

Why not contact Freed again and see if they have the docs on the parts used on the 2A version.

Mark

 

[damnyankee]

When I talk to Cliff/ETC on Monday, I'll ask him if he can shed more light about the EQ Network system but I want to remind everyone what he told me yesterday:  Freed was bought after those trafos were made so he doesn't know anything about them until he pulls the sheets on them.  And, he has to look to see if he can replicate them. 

By the way: is there a reason why the EQ Networks have to be filled with wax?  Can we order them without it to potentially save on cost? 

Finally...Mark - if you eyeball the schemo vs your Lang (pots/resistors), does the schemo look similar?  If so, then we may be OK using the 37727 & 37744 EQ Networks with the Lang Manual Schemo.

DY

 

[abbey road d enfer]

By the way: is there a reason why the EQ Networks have to be filled with wax?  Can we order them without it to potentially save on cost? 

It doesn't have to. Wax is used primarily to avoid humidity getting in and corroding connections and metal core; it has also a tiny influence on sound because it alters the leakage capacitance and it prevents any mechanical vibration of the windings, which may induce some distortion (typically fractions of fractions of %). It also provides mechanical fixing in the can. Today transformers and inductors are impregnated with varnish for the same reasons; wax has the advantage of allowing repair because it can be melted at reasonable temperature. Wax is relatively inexpensive so I don't think varnish would be much cheaper.

 

[Biasrocks]

Finally...Mark - if you eyeball the schemo vs your Lang (pots/resistors), does the schemo look similar?  If so, then we may be OK using the 37727 & 37744 EQ Networks with the Lang Manual Schemo.

Well, I've uploaded the pictures so you can have a look.  8)

As you can see there are very few external parts, I spotted one resistor on the EQ network pots and that's it. All of the magic components are sealed away in those cans. They're sealed tight with only one small hole for the wires to poke out and I'm not in the mood to get the can opener out.  ;D

Hopefully your contact at Freed can shed some light on them and the different part numbers. I would provide him all the part numbers and see what he can come up with. There's a PEQ-4 Mid EQ on ebay that has another set of EQ networks as well.

#40588 & #40589.

Good luck Jedi.

Mark

 

[damnyankee]

That doesn't make sense.  Why would Lang essentially have another company basically build their EQ?  All Lang had to do was bolt up the pots and wire it all up.  Was Lang a subsidiary to Freed???  They were both in New York.  Hmmm...

As for ETC:  I talk to them on Monday but he's not going to know.  It was made very clear they bought the rights to the Freed name and their build sheets.  They don't know about the Freed EQ Networks...he didn't know about these until I gave him a part number so he could pull a build sheet and when he did, he found the note that Lang (geetar amp company in Las Vegas) inquired about these very parts about 6 months ago.

So what about this:  you have a working unit.  Instead of rolling the dice on the EQ network & I/O trafo numbers from the schemo (which may/may not be correct), should I get a cost on the EQ network numbers and I/O trafos on your unit instead?  If he comes back and says "they're the same thing", then that's good.  If not, at least we have images of an actual working unit.

Thoughts???

DY

 

[abechap024]

YES IF you could get the info sheets on the self contained eq networks from freed I think we would be that much more ahead of the game. Do you think they would be willing to give that information up? probably...

Then once we have everything I'm thinking a pcb with all lorin switches. It may not look like the original build but the ease of not having to shoot out a million wires i think makes up for it. and the people that are really set on having a look alike can always go from the lorin holes to their switches via some wires.

I really like the idea of having a high and low type sweetening EQ

 

[Biasrocks]

That doesn't make sense.  Why would Lang essentially have another company basically build their EQ?  All Lang had to do was bolt up the pots and wire it all up.  Was Lang a subsidiary to Freed???  They were both in New York.  Hmmm...

It makes perfect sense. Lang specified the build of the transformers and networks; Freed built them. No big deal. Just smart part sourcing and resource utilization.

So what about this:  you have a working unit.  Instead of rolling the dice on the EQ network & I/O trafo numbers from the schemo (which may/may not be correct), should I get a cost on the EQ network numbers and I/O trafos on your unit instead?  If he comes back and says "they're the same thing", then that's good.  If not, at least we have images of an actual working unit.

Thoughts???

Sure, that makes sense.

I'm fairly certain that if he laid his hands on the part #'s in the manual that it would be just as easy for him to find the alternates in the filing cabinet.

My other thought is that the Lang geetar company may not be making a PEQ-2A after all.

YES IF you could get the info sheets on the self contained eq networks from freed I think we would be that much more ahead of the game. Do you think they would be willing to give that information up? probably...

Yes on ahead of the game.

No on giving up the secret, unless he's a complete idiot!

Think about it for a second.

Potential future business + no future business =  LESS THAN ZERO.

Mark

 

[strangeandbouncy]

  . . .  ;D . . .

 

[damnyankee]

Update:

Called Cliff today (what a terrific guy!).  He said ETC bought Freed 27 years ago and he has been with ETC for a very, very long time (before Freed was purchased).  He said Freed kept great records and the last #37744 (EQ Network on schemo) was built was in 1965.  He also said there's a note on the build sheet that "Lang supplies special condensor supply" on both #37727 & #37744 Eq Networks.

As for Mark's EQ Networks #38831 & #38832:  he said there's a note on 38831 that says "same as 38839 except leads on mount side" and same note is on #38832, "same as 38840 except leads on mount side".

I asked him if the caps were contained in the inductor and he said he won't know until he goes upstairs and blows the dust off those old folders.  He did say Lang supplied Freed with those cans and he said, "we can make them for you" and I told him that our group was considering putting the whole thing on PCB and he said, "that certainly will be cheaper for you".

He said he'll go "upstairs" and pull those build sheets tomorrow to see what's what.  I think when he sees what's what, he might just do the inductors & I/O trafos for us and give us the cap info for pcb.  We'll see.

Keep your fingers crossed...

DY

 

[emrr]

That is seriously cool to know the info still exists.  Don't be surprised by a hefty quote.   

 

[damnyankee]

There's hardly anything inside Mark's Lang, so most of the build cost will be wrapped up in those cans.  If we keep in mind what a Pultec clone costs to build (including trafos), I think we're all expecting the quote to be correspondingly expensive.

As a reminder: I asked him to price it out into 25 and 50 quantities and today I told him we want to bundle the I and O trafos with the two EQ Networks.  
 
I'm hoping he won't want to fool around soldering up all the caps stuff and wants to focus on what his company does best: inductors & trafos.  If that's the case, we'll need him to provide us the cap info for the trafos/inductors as all of it will be going on pcb.

We'll see what he can/can't do for us tomorrow.

DY

 

[Soeren_DK]

Wooow. Great work. Very exciting. .

Cheers
Soren

 

[creal]

it's very good if we can order a bundle the I and O trafos with the two EQ Networks

 

[damnyankee]

Update #2:

I hope these EQ Networks and inductors are in our price range because Cliff has been a really cool guy who is extremely knowledgeable and helpful.  It would be great if we could throw some bones to him for all his efforts.

Cliff called me back today regarding the Input & Output trafos (#38165 & 38166) and said the last ones Lang sold were in the early '70s and they went for $25 each.  He said they can be made and has his guys looking at them right now but he forewarned me that they're going to be expensive compared to $25 paid in the early '70s.  He said, "it's going to be hard not to put these in an enclosure because they are two interconnected coils wrapped in kinetic foil for shielding before they are wired to the header and then mounted into the cans.  I presume the kinetic foil was used to shield the unit from noise".  One very important tidbit: Cliff verified there are no additional components inside these input/output trafos cans.

As for the EQ Networks: he was going to pull the build sheet on those.  He was under the impression the Lang EQ had a pcb inside it.  I told him one of our Prodigy members took the lid off and there's really nothing inside except for the pot controls mounted on the front panel and the wires which go up into the trafo/EQ networks.  That piqued his interest.  I told him this is why we want to put the EQ Network (caps and inductors) on pcb instead of re-creating the can.  He said if the EQ Network build includes caps inside those cans, he'll consider emailing me the build sheet so we can place the caps and his inductors on our pcb.

Interestingly, he said ETC primarily does government contract work for the military but they still do one-ofs of Freed transformer replacements for old Fender Rhodes, Altec Lansing, and old high end Hi-Fi gear like Fisher, etc (he rattled off a number of high profile companies Freed made transformers for).  

It's shaping up that the Lang wasn't a cheap Pultec knock-off afterall...

DY