Live Sound Issues - Advice

[Ricardus]

So one of my live sound gigs is at a modest venue, run in a cool facility by a pastor I know. We have all the best regional talent play there. But this year he's being a douche to me. So while I don't know what might have changed in his personal life, he's always telling me it's too loud.

This is the 3rd year I've had this (seasonal summer) gig, and this was never an issue before. I don't mix loud, in fact I hate the guys who mix loud just be make people deaf. I mix at the volume appropriate for the venue and the artist.

For example, tonight we've got a guitar singer/songwriter guy. 2 inputs. One vocal one guitar. It's really easy to make him quiet. I can make him so quiet as not to be heard.

But last Sunday, and on other nights, we have bands with drummers and horns, etc...

They are simply going to be louder.

During sound checks I ring out the room and find any issues frequency wise... you know the drill, and this year he's always walking up to me asking me if it's going to be this loud, and EVERY TIME I tell him I'm just ringing out the room yada yada yada.

But in the cases of bands with drummers, I can turn the master fader down, and the band is still going to be loud just with stage volume. I've told him this 1000 times, and he keeps coming up to me being an asshole about it. I'm at my wits end. I don't know how to deal with this guy anymore.

Frankly, I feel like this is largely a failure on his part for not setting expectations with the regulars, and letting them know that a live band with a drummer is simply going  to be louder than them watching the Lawrence Welk Show on TV at home (some of the crowd is older, and they're parishoners of his). After watching him for 3 years now, even though he's a pastor, it's clear to me he's terrified to deal with these people for some reason, and I've become his whipping boy for some reason this year.

We had a killer band called The Galactic Cowboy Orchestra in recently (kinda the Dixie Dregs meet the Mahavishnu Orchestra) and I thought the volume was perfect for the band and the venue. I talked to a bunch of people who came and they agreed. People I know who I've never seen at the gig before came to see them, and last night they told me they thought the vocals could have been louder.

But because 4 old women complained to him it was too loud, he was up my a$$.

Any advice on how I should deal with this guy?

 

[user 37518]

Give the client what he wants, if he wants it low volume, then mix it very low even if it sounds bad to you, if the band is loud enough with stage sound alone, then mute the PA and tell your client to deal with the band if he wants it quiet.

 

[Ricardus]

Give the client what he wants, if he wants it low volume, then mix it very low even if it sounds bad to you, if the band is loud enough with stage sound alone, then mute the PA and tell your client to deal with the band if he wants it quiet.

It's not that easy. I rarely mic drums because the room isn't huge. If you want to hear the vocals, they have to be louder than the drums, right? That's what I mean by setting the volume appropriately.

 

[iomegaman]

My god you've triggered my PTSD from church...(preachers kid, former worship leader and sound guy for small to large venue church events 30 years)...

Frankly I doubt you're going to win this one...those older members who attend are essentially his stock holders and he is compelled to compliment their hats and do whatever they ask, its the nature of the beast (or the mark of it depending on how you read the Apocalypse).

I once played in a church where the sound guy was literally deaf in one ear...seriously could not mix his way out of a wet paper bag but kept the job because he was a "servant" who took no money for the position.

My point is you are up against competing value systems here...you have a commitment to the quality of the audio experience while the pastor has a commitment to the status quo and not rocking the boat and does not understand the influence of the audio appliances involved.

BUT you do have a secret weapon...

Pastors by and large are incredibly motivated by how people perceive them...this is to your advantage, in this case he is more worried about making sure the old ladies see him as their protector/leader...but because this is a community event you have the advantage of the public perception of him...(which is not even measurable, just a matter of influence)

You will have no power to influence him is you speak as a sound guy/technician...BUT if you mention how the community might view him, or even how your own community might view him you'd be surprised at how he responds...I can almost promise he has a vested interest in keeping his reputation shiny and new...

Things that might work:

"Wow, I am so grateful for your input, why just the other day I was talking with a huge group of media experts and telling them what a great venue this is and how difficult it is to tune the system so that ALL musicians and people find a comfortable experience and how truly supportive you are of my role and experience as a sound technician to bring it optimum levels so that everyone is heard. Most pastors don't really understand how difficult this job is and think it is only about the sound volume, but I've worked with you enough to know you get it! (Which is a lie) I can't wait to relate to my peers how supportive you've been in the past.

Now that might seem a  little over the top, but it is probably one of the few things that will work, his ego is directly connected to his position...I've seen it a thousand times, my own dad was a pastor and I've met thousands of them over my lifetime, they are all pretty much the same here, they think sound guys are an annoyance and simply want it loud.

Of course this is speculation, but my experience is probably trending towards the right direction here...not all pastors think everything is about them, but quite a few do...enough to give it a social sound check and see what rings out.

 

[JohnRoberts]

The next time he complains during a show, ask him to move the faders... Show him what is what... Unless he is a total idiot (a possibility) he will figure out that it's the stage wash and not your rig...

JR

 

[Ricardus]

My god you've triggered my PTSD from church...(preachers kid, former worship leader and sound guy for small to large venue church events 30 years)...

Frankly I doubt you're going to win this one...
...


BUT you do have a secret weapon...

...

(edited down so I didn't quote the whole message)

This is all good advice, and worth a try. Thanks!

 

[Ricardus]

The next time he complains during a show, ask him to move the faders... Show him what is what... Unless he is a total idiot (a possibility) he will figure out that it's the stage wash and not your rig...

JR

I have actually done this. He nods, says he understands, and it OK with it for the rest of the event (usually).

But then it's the exact same conversation the next gig with identical circumstances. So that tells me he wasn't actually listening all of the previous times, or maybe he DOESN'T understand, or doesn't care and just wants to be a douchebag up my @$$ all the time.

Frankly, I'm getting tired of this gig. Don't even enjoy doing them anymore, and I used to LOVE them.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Perhaps he has people complaining to him.

Sh__ rolls downhill.

JR

 

[Tubetec]

What Id say is, during the sound check for the band pre arrange a moment where you visibly demonstrate your front of house sound is off ,muted even powered down so the pastor clearly understands that the volume  coming off the stage is not directly under your control , tell him if he wishes to break the balls of the band over the volume he can but he's on his own with it ,
Best bet is find a quiet moment or request a moment of privacy to speak about  the ongoing issue with him , the underlying issue here isnt anything to do with you or your workmanship  ,its to do with the fact that he's booking the wrong kinds of bands for the four fat ladies , tell him in no uncertain terms ,your packing your trunk and saying good bye to the circus unless the bullsh!t stops .
It already sounds like your ready to jump ship at any moment ,a big dramatic blow out in front of an audience isnt a good finish for you , if you cant face up to him  and tell the truth  walk away , otherwise you need a hard reset of  the boundaries of the  manner in which your being treated .

I was pitched an offer of a sound engineering job one time from a church group  ,to be honest Im not sure if it was paid work or not , I politely refused the offer .  Its never going to be a standard rock roll gig if 'conversion' is the name of the game. Keep a wide  eye out for other opertunities  in sound eng just in case things are beyond salvation with the pastor .
Best of luck  :

 

[Ricardus]

I appreciate all the advice.

 

[john12ax7]

Volume is often determined by the drums,  get them to get one of those clear drum shields,  they do help.  Or get the drummer to play quieter,  lighter sticks,  etc.

 

[PRR]

If the money comes from tender-ear people, WHY does he hire Galactic Cowboys???

At school we had season-tix folks who came to Large Jazz Band, and said it was too loud. All I had up was a touch of piano and a solo-mike, 99% of the sound was a dozen+ brass and sax and drummer. Old-folks complained.

 

[Seeker]

Volume is often determined by the drums,  get them to get one of those clear drum shields,  they do help.  Or get the drummer to play quieter,  lighter sticks,  etc.

The drum shield is a very good suggestion... 

I’d keep a shield around for electric guitar amps too....

Also scooping the 1-2k region more than normal might help give a more mellow sound that will be perceived as softer while still staying full.... of course this doesn’t help if stage volume is your problem...

 

[Winston OBoogie]

What everyone else said.  Not in any way whatsoever a live sound engineer but Ive done it and been where you are @ a jazz club full of old dears and aging '40's & '50's crooner lovers come to watch a jazz-rock-fusion thing.
At least it's only a once a year gig, it'll pass. 

 

[Gold]

+1 on the drum shield. Also some gobo's for loud amps if that's also a problem.

 

[Ricardus]

If the money comes from tender-ear people, WHY does he hire Galactic Cowboys???

I don't think the money comes from them, the money comes from everyone. They're just the loudest complainers.

Also, they're not the only loud band.

The point I'm making is having a real music venue with a real sound system and engineer, is somewhat incompatible with always having to cater to the same four people who think EVERYTHING is too loud.

 

[Ricardus]

+1 on the drum shield. Also some gobo's for loud amps if that's also a problem.

I've been thinking about this. The issue here would be whether or not he wants to spring for the cost of these.

 

[Ricardus]

Volume is often determined by the drums,  get them to get one of those clear drum shields,  they do help.  Or get the drummer to play quieter,  lighter sticks,  etc.

Some players are down with this and play to the room, and other guys are just always on 10. You know.

 

[Gold]

I've been thinking about this. The issue here would be whether or not he wants to spring for the cost of these.

I doubt he would.  As long as you’re on his side and trying to solve the  problem he may find another problem to occupy his time. If making the old biddies happy is going to be expensive he’ll probably drop it.

 

[Mbira]

I'd aproach him on a day when you are not working and mention that you have noticed that he has felt like the drums are too loud and that you recommend getting those fiberglass transparent baffels so that you can bring down the stage bleed.  Then maybe he will be happy that you are being proactive instead of being on the spot on a night when you are working.

EDIT:  I see everyone else has recommended the same thing.  The churches I have worked in have all had them for this very reason.