Manley Gold disbelief

[Banzai]

For those who dont get what i expect from a 5000$ mic manufacturing, just look inside any Brauner mic.

1) Here's a +$6000 Brauner:
https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=63305.0

$2 extruded side rails
$2-$5 PCB
$5 tube
$0.50 Wima capacitors
$0.10 phillips/vishay resistors

Owner of that exact mic stated it didn't have much character... and proceeded to make modifications.

2) Here's a $3000 Ref C:
https://www.frontendaudio.com/manley-reference-cardioid-microphone/

Same $2 PCB construction, practically identical chassis build, same suspended tube from PCB setup... I'd even go as far as saying the Manley chassis is more expensive (machined rails). Both are clean and well built. Manley uses more parts, and probably takes longer to build (higher labour cost).

So how is that not exactly the same quality as the Brauner?

tldr: if you don't think the Manley is worth 5K, you're kidding yourself thinking Brauner is worth even more.

 

[Icantthinkofaname]

1) Here's a +$6000 Brauner:
https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=63305.0

$2 extruded side rails
$2-$5 PCB
$5 tube
$0.50 Wima capacitors
$0.10 phillips/vishay resistors

Owner of that exact mic stated it didn't have much character... and proceeded to make modifications.

2) Here's a $3000 Ref C:
https://www.frontendaudio.com/manley-reference-cardioid-microphone/

Same $2 PCB construction, practically identical chassis build, same suspended tube from PCB setup... I'd even go as far as saying the Manley chassis is more expensive (machined rails). Both are clean and well built. Manley uses more parts, and probably takes longer to build (higher labour cost).

So how is that not exactly the same quality as the Brauner?

tldr: if you don't think the Manley is worth 5K, you're kidding yourself thinking Brauner is worth even more.

I'm guessing it's the soldering job they don't like. The inside of the Manley does look incredibly sloppy. The Brauner looks like it's put together much more cleanly (regardless of whether or not the components are any better or any more functional), and that makes it look more professional.

 

[kingkorg]

1) Here's a +$6000 Brauner:
https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=63305.0

$2 extruded side rails
$2-$5 PCB
$5 tube
$0.50 Wima capacitors
$0.10 phillips/vishay resistors

Owner of that exact mic stated it didn't have much character... and proceeded to make modifications.

2) Here's a $3000 Ref C:
https://www.frontendaudio.com/manley-reference-cardioid-microphone/

Same $2 PCB construction, practically identical chassis build, same suspended tube from PCB setup... I'd even go as far as saying the Manley chassis is more expensive (machined rails). Both are clean and well built. Manley uses more parts, and probably takes longer to build (higher labour cost).

So how is that not exactly the same quality as the Brauner?

tldr: if you don't think the Manley is worth 5K, you're kidding yourself thinking Brauner is worth even more.

I guess you choose to see what you want to see.

Brauner is miles away quality/manufacturing wise from Manley the way i see it.

If nothing else it starts with custom designed and manufacured capsule. They at least took the time to put the thing together decently so that it looks like a finished product.

The owner thought it was charracterless, but what does that have anythyng to do with manufacturing? He simply didn't like the mic.


This should be self explanatory:
https://youtu.be/_CtP7PxGzgc

 

[Khron]

This kinda makes me feel all that much better about my sub-$100 DIY endeavours ;D

http://khronscave.blogspot.com/2017/05/cheap-chinese-bm800-microphone-modding.html
http://khronscave.blogspot.com/2017/10/16-bm800-modding-part-2-ck12-k47.html

[WARNING: The above links may contain electronic nudity... Scratch that - they definitely DO  : ]


[Edit] Ok, i might've misspoken - sub$100 in parts, at least

 

[kingkorg]

Awesome post Khron! Where do you source PCBs from?

I am sure those mics would put to shame bunch of comercialy available mics.

However if you count in the price of labour in Finland, just as I might the current labour prices in Norway, those mics would easily be priced just like californian ones. It's not like we are working for peanuts here.

 

[Khron]

I've heard finns say Norway is expensive, so i "did the math" ;D

But i had those boards made in China. Can't quite remember which was made where, but those particular ones are either from Smart Prototyping, or Itead.

I've had some more recent boards made at JLC PCB, but i'll be damned if i can tell any difference between'em - they're all good Well, good enough for my purposes, anyway

 

[Recording Engineer]

If nothing else it starts with custom designed and manufacured capsule.

Wait a minute... And just what do you think Josephson is? Because you just described them.

Now I’ve had my own personal interaction with David Josephson himself, the way he talked to a friend and me, that has left such a terrible taste in our mouths that we’ve both voud to never buy any Josephson product, ever. But to deny his quality and constributon in the microphone capsule world is beyond me! I so wish I could find an excuse in myself to buying a Manley Gold and Silver or any of the Josephson mics because the sound-quality is impeccable. I haven’t found that excuse yet though, unfortunately.

 

[kingkorg]

I feel in a lot of ways we are actually saying the same thing, but somewhere we somehow dissagree.

I have never said any Manley sounds bad. It's just that for the price i would expect more proffessional execution. Not to mention Cardioid which used 30$ capsule.

Same goes for Josephson. I can't see how that capsule could cost 1200$. It is at the end just a ck12 copy. A good one, yeah, sure. But it is a try to replicate something else. They use a public domain design. They do exactly the same thing Chinese do with all those k67 capsules. The difference being that Germans actually gave the technology and knowledge to Chinese.

Having in mind that original Neumann capsule costs about 700$, both k67, and k47 i am struggling to see where does this Josephson price come from.  Neumann came up with the desigh, made a name with those products, is located in country where wages are at least the same as californian ones, only highly ejucated and trained people work with those parts in probably the only country on the planet that has the personnel to teach on this subject at this level! Pretty much same goes for what is left of AKG.

Brauner takes classic capsule design, and takes it further by trying to improve it and creates unique capsule not available elsewhere. So you get a microphone that sounds like....  well, Brauner. 

I would't like to turn this topic into Brauner vs Manley, as it's crazy, and i just used Brauner as an example.

Soyuz can be used as an example which is USA/Soviet colab, and they make insane and beautiful mics for crazy low price.

I just thought that comunity like this would appreciate  attention to details which Manley obviously lacks here. On the other hand we all know it is possible to stick a great sounding capsule into half decent circuit/body and get great sounding microphone. But charge 5000$ for something like that is simply nuts.

Didrik de Geer does this, and that doesn't mean i should be insane and think his "masterpieces'' are actually worth 25.000$ he asks for one of his mics.  Even though Mariah Carey, James Hetfield, Celine Dion do think so.

 

[Recording Engineer]

The rub is the internal look for the money, got it. I think everyone got that initially.

As for the Ref C, it’s not for me, and it probably has to do with the capsule choice; just a most-likely guess.

By the way, I think you know you’re not really comparing apples to apples anywhere in your capsule comparisons.  Besides actual pricings, exchange-rates, and amount of diaphragms, a CK12-type capsule is certainly more difficult and labor-intensive than the others; we all know this. In addition, AKG itself in its hay day had an extremely hard time getting it even somewhat consistent. I really don’t know why at all, but maybe modern equipment allows consistency among them with today’s CK-12 type manufacturers?

Why is there such a price difference between say Beesneez, Campbell, MBHO, Josephson? Well, who can really say? But I don’t believe for one second that it’s a coincidence that the two most expensive, by a long shot, are the two who’ve been doing it for the longest, by a long shot.

I also don’t think the original inventor idea holds any water either. Their long history with consistesound-quality and quality-control and what everyone judges everything else by, is much more conceivable.

 

[Recording Engineer]

Brauner takes classic capsule design, and takes it further by trying to improve it and creates unique capsule not available elsewhere. So you get a microphone that sounds like....  well, Brauner.

Again, wait a minute... How is this any different than Josephson? You’ve yet again described Josephson.

 

[Recording Engineer]

Also, I suppose an overall point I’d like to make is that whenever anyone is at the top of their game and they know it, they can pretty much charge whatever the absolute top on the market can handle, and should! If it’s too much, the market will let them know by not buying. Considering how long the Gold has been on the market, I’d say sales have done just fine. I have a feeling it’s because it sounds so good.

 

[Icantthinkofaname]

This kinda makes me feel all that much better about my sub-$100 DIY endeavours ;D

http://khronscave.blogspot.com/2017/05/cheap-chinese-bm800-microphone-modding.html
http://khronscave.blogspot.com/2017/10/16-bm800-modding-part-2-ck12-k47.html

[WARNING: The above links may contain electronic nudity... Scratch that - they definitely DO  : ]


[Edit] Ok, i might've misspoken - sub$100 in parts, at least

Those are really nice mics. You even managed to get a switch PCB in there (I never liked that the 3-pattern mic-parts kits replace existing switches, Matt says that it's not possible to fit three switches on the PCB, yet smaller circuits do it). And yet the Roswell Mini K47 costs $300, is single pattern, and looks like it's just the Alice mic circuit with a K47 capsule.

 

[Khron]

Are you somehow implying i've defied some [ahem] "laws of physics"? ;D

But i got the idea of the switch PCB (and mounting) from the stock sE 2200A (of which i have a few that i've similarly changed all the guts in, apart from the transformer).

And yeah, I was quite... surprised when that came out, and i heard the price tag. That sure must be some expensive paint! :
Kinda wish i got to see the insides, though. I wonder if those BM700-looking bodies have the BMx00 cast-zinc "chassis", or the bent-steel kind like the Alctron HSMC001 / Apex 435 (which look identical on the outside).

Those are really nice mics. You even managed to get a switch PCB in there (I never liked that the 3-pattern mic-parts kits replace existing switches, Matt says that it's not possible to fit three switches on the PCB, yet smaller circuits do it). And yet the Roswell Mini K47 costs $300, is single pattern, and looks like it's just the Alice mic circuit with a K47 capsule.

 

[Banzai]

Brauner is miles away quality/manufacturing wise from Manley the way i see it.

If nothing else it starts with custom designed and manufacured capsule. They at least took the time to put the thing together decently so that it looks like a finished product.

Think I see where you're going wrong. That seller on Reverb is claiming it's a 2014 unit, but there's no way that's a 4-year old mic: if the Gold was released in 1990, that unit with 6072 is somewhere between 20 to 30-years old. Not a valid representation of what you get if you bought one today, after a manufacturer has 30-years experience building something.

See here for serial 26 (probably from 1990 or 1991), same build and construction as yours:
https://reverb.com/item/15212498-early-sn-26-manley-reference-gold-multi-pattern-mic-with-original-design-6072a-tube-and-wood-case

The previous link I posted showed guts of the current Ref C build. You can look inside the Manley manual for up to date guts of the Gold. They've been that way for at least a decade, and think they haven't used 6072's for at least 15.

The owner thought it was charracterless, but what does that have anythyng to do with manufacturing? He simply didn't like the mic.

Don't do classical music, and don't need reference grade silence and transparency. A mic with no clear character of its own has no value to me (don't own any Manley gear either). But doesn't change that it's built just as cheaply as the Manley. FR4 + parts = done.

 

[kingkorg]

Not the gold one, but reference cardioid that just arrived for service. The disbelief still remains. Big $ mic, capsule to grid connection, and the warm sound of remaining flux.

 

[rock soderstrom]

and the warm sound of remaining flux.

 

[Tubetec]

Thats a bit crumby looking for that kind of money ,
doesnt appear to me to be a whole lot different to any other cheap Chinese made mic with legacy era branding added and a bump up in price that bears no relation to the quality of what your getting .

People would be far better off spending 500 on the parts/tools and learning to make a decent tube mic , save the extra 4.5K . Even if you end up paying a Tech to sort it out later , your still winning .

Ever heard the old saying,
The fool and his money are easily parted ,
never a truer word spoken ,

 

[Khron]

People would be far better off spending 500 on the parts/tools and learning to make a decent tube mic , save the extra 4.5K . Even if you end up paying a Tech to sort it out later , your still winning .

... But that's not very Manly now, is it? Or wait, no, I meant Manley...

 

[k brown]

This all reminds me of the time a friend bought a MacIntosh preamp, only to find that virtually the only active device inside was a 5532. Don't remember which model, or the price.

 

[Tubetec]

Carefull Khron ,
what you said might end up misconstrued as sexist by a militant left element ,
Maybe they should call the company Woo-Manley instead