Manufacture 78t discs for use on needle gramophones

[Bebert81]

Hello,
I don't know if this thread is posted in the right place, and if this is really the right forum for my question, but after all it's about audio and DIY...
I restored a couple of gramophones (HVM101) for use in a theatre show (Camera Obscura), and was really surprised by the quality and emotion felt when listening to this century old equipment. The sound is incredible.
I wonder if it's realistic to try and burn 78 rpm records with today's music? The old records were made of shellac, which was hard enough to withstand the heavy needle (nearly 150 g).
One option could be triyng to reproduce this old process with shellac. But not easy to find informations about that...
Other option could be to look to new synthetic material maybe easier to implement ?
Does anybody has an idea on the subject ?
Thank you in advance for you help.
Bertrand

 

[JohnRoberts]

My dad was a recording engineer for RCA in NYC (1950s).

I have a couple old lacquers(?) that he cut for us kids 60-70 years ago.

JR

 

[C.B. - Boudio]

You could try to find an old lacquer cutter (Presto, Rek-O-Kut,...). Seems to be doable in the US, but not in Belgium as in my case, and probably not really in France either. The laquers (some kind of PVC can work, too, I think) will be worn out rather quickly though.

Or even modify an acoustic phonograph to make your acoustic recordings (strong diafragm, hard needle and a fullrange HiFi speaker in the horn, something like that). Quality will be quite low of course.

 

[Bebert81]

I have a couple old lacquers(?) that he cut for us kids 60-70 years ago.

what material are these lacquers made of ?

Or even modify an acoustic phonograph to make your acoustic recordings (strong diafragm, hard needle and a fullrange HiFi speaker in the horn, something like that). Quality will be quite low of course.

It really makes you want to try it.

I suppose the material used for engraving must be softer than the material used for reading. Perhaps a contact duplication process is needed to switch from one to the other?

 

[Bebert81]

Or burning a soft material wich can be chemically hardened...

 

[JohnRoberts]

what material are these lacquers made of ?

I don't know and my father died over 60 years ago (RIP) so I can't ask him. I think I recall that they were called lacquers.

I just pulled out a few to look at. These were coated aluminum(?) discs. The ones that my father used while working for RCA were locally manufactured by a NYC company called "Audiodisc". From an advertisement printed on one of the paper envelopes they were also promoting "Audiotape". The finish was shiny, glossy if that tells you anything.

I recall as a young kid using these as frisbees but I suspect it could really hurt someone if struck by a flying aluminum platter.

My recollection about listening to old 78's was mostly about high levels of surface noise and scratches but we kids did not handle the recordings carefully.

From a quick web search

Audiodisc was an American brand of blank acetate discs made by Audio Devices, Inc., USA under license from Pyral France, the inventor of the lacquer disc. Professional Audiodisc acetates were sold to the recording industry, and commercial versions were marketed to home users and hobbyists fr

So the medium was acetate also known as lacquers. DIY record cutting was apparently popular back in the day.

JR

 

[C.B. - Boudio]

I suppose the material used for engraving must be softer than the material used for reading. Perhaps a contact duplication process is needed to switch from one to the other?

For vinyl mastering, they still use those soft lacquers, and to get to vinyl, they have all those copies and different stampers and such (as you probably know), not really DIY-able (makes me want to try it though... in the very far future).
But you could get some inspiration from there I guess.

Or burning a soft material wich can be chemically hardened...

That sounds actually like quite a good idea, although the material can't be too soft to start with either, and it should not deform at all while hardening - and this sounds very tricky to me.

 

[Gold]

Hello,
I don't know if this thread is posted in the right place, and if this is really the right forum for my question, but after all it's about audio and DIY...
I restored a couple of gramophones (HVM101) for use in a theatre show (Camera Obscura), and was really surprised by the quality and emotion felt when listening to this century old equipment. The sound is incredible.
I wonder if it's realistic to try and burn 78 rpm records with today's music? The old records were made of shellac, which was hard enough to withstand the heavy needle (nearly 150 g).
One option could be triyng to reproduce this old process with shellac. But not easy to find informations about that...
Other option could be to look to new synthetic material maybe easier to implement ?
Does anybody has an idea on the subject ?
Thank you in advance for you help.
Bertrand

View attachment 144593

It sounds like you are confused about the record making process. The recording process is different than the manufacturing process. During the era that 78RPM shellac records were manufactured the masters were cut into a wax disc. The manufacturing process used shellac as material that went into compression moudling machines. Both wax blanks and shellac that could be used to press are no longer available. This is impossible short of remanufacturing everything from scratch, which would cost millions of dollars.

Most people who are using dub cutters these days use some sort of plastic disc to cut into. Polycarbonate I think is the most popular. You can purchase them here https://www.recordlatheparts.com/collections/record-blanks These are for so called 'lathe cut records'. These can't be used as masters for manufacturing. They are only for consumer playback.

To make a master that could be replicated at a pressing plant you would have to use a lacquer master disc. The material is nitrocellulose lacquer.

 

[Bebert81]

It sounds like you are confused about the record making process. The recording process is different than the manufacturing process. During the era that 78RPM shellac records were manufactured the masters were cut into a wax disc. The manufacturing process used shellac as material that went into compression moudling machines. Both wax blanks and shellac that could be used to press are no longer available. This is impossible short of remanufacturing everything from scratch, which would cost millions of dollars.

Thank you Paul for your clarification. It's very clear.

I don't think the word ‘fabrication’ in the title of this thread is the right one, sorry for my broken English. I'm just trying to find a way to burn the proptotype of a playable record on a needle gramophone.

In fact, what interests me artistically would be to be able to play records of contemporary music on a gramophone, or even concrete sounds, atmospheres...

an unachievable project?

 

[Gold]

I'm just trying to find a way to burn the proptotype of a playable record on a needle gramophone.

In fact, what interests me artistically would be to be able to play records of contemporary music on a gramophone, or even concrete sounds, atmospheres...

an unachievable project?

The easiest way to do this would be to buy a ‘dub cutter’ lathe. The most popular brands in the US were Presto and Rek-O-Kut. These are small mono lathes. You could buy one and off you go.

You could also give someone that does lathe cut records the audio you want cut. That would obviously be much less money and time.

 

[MidnightArrakis]

Well.....you can always try this:

Jack White from the band "The White Stripes" also has a vinyl record-pressing company located in Detroit, MI here in the U.S. From what little I have read about this guy, he has his own eccentricities about vintage audio equipment and technologies and I'm thinking that should you contact him, he just might take a fancy liking to what it is that you are trying to do and -- just might -- try to see what he could do to help you out. Here is the URL to his record-pressing company and up in the upper-right hand corner of the webpage is a -- CONTACT -- selection to submit a question or at least make a contact with the company:

https://thirdmanpressing.com

Third Man Pressing is a state-of-the-art vinyl pressing plant in the heart of Detroit’s historic Cass Corridor neighborhood. We press records to the highest standards of quality while minimizing waste and maximizing sustainability in every aspect of the manufacturing process.



In addition, one of our own GroupDIY members also operates a record-pressing facility that is located in Salina, KS which is also here in the U.S. His GroupDIY member ID is -- @Brian Roth -- and the website for his record-pressing facility is:

www.qualityrecordpressings.com/

Perhaps you could "Start A Conversation" with him and see if there is anything he may be able to offer in assisting you. However, and just as a "side-note".....you need to have sent and/or responded to at least 10-messages on this forum before you are able to "Start A Conversation" with another member privately. Since your screen-information shows that you have only responded or sent 5 messages as of this point-in-time, you can't contact him directly. However, a possible "work-around" this limitation would be for you to do a "forum search" on his ID -- @Brian Roth -- just for you to have one of his thread message responses onto your monitor so you can reply back to him. From there, just send him a simple message stating that you need for him to contact you directly by using the "Start A Conversation" link. Once he contacts you directly, you should be "Good-To-Go" from there!!!

Here is his own personal website address:

http://www.brianroth.com

Be sure to tell him that -- Midnight Arrakis -- sent you, OK???

BEST OF LUCK!!!

/

 

[Brian Roth]

@MidnightArrakis .. I really smiled when I read your post! I am sure that my friend Chad Kassem here in Salina would would also smile when someone says that Brian Roth owns QRP.

Alas, I'm just a long-time tech services provider to Chad and his other companies. IE, a hired gun. I never realized my "sig line" would lead anyone to believe I owned Recording Services and Supply (owned by Aaron Householter, one of two my best friend here in Salina...he is a sometimes-visitor on GDIY) or QRP and Chad's other companies.

I listed them because of my loyalty to them and to try and dispel the notion that my state of Kansas is a dirt pile full of ignorant hayseeds.

Going back to the OP's question..... no plant making "records" in 2025 can "press" anything that can withstand 150 gram tracking force. As Gold has indicated....with enough interest and attention... it is possible 1-offs can be created to withstand 140 G tracking. Duplicating shellacs is way beyond my paygrade.

Before I relocated here in Salina, I dumped a Rek-O-Kut transcription lathe and some mystery 10" (17" ?) blanks. That lathe was gifted to me in High Screwel. I've had a bad habit of never discarding anything....lol

Bri

 

[MidnightArrakis]

@MidnightArrakis .. I really smiled when I read your post! I am sure that my friend Chad Kassem here in Salina would would also smile when someone says that Brian Roth owns QRP.

Alas, I'm just a long-time tech services provider to Chad and his other companies. IE, a hired gun. I never realized my "sig line" would lead anyone to believe I owned Recording Services and Supply (owned by Aaron Householter, one of two my best friend here in Salina...he is a sometimes-visitor on GDIY) or QRP and Chad's other companies.

I listed them because of my loyalty to them and to try and dispel the notion that my state of Kansas is a dirt pile full of ignorant hayseeds.

Going back to the OP's question..... no plant making "records" in 2025 can "press" anything that can withstand 150 gram tracking force. As Gold has indicated....with enough interest and attention... it is probable 1-offs can be created to withstand 140 G tracking. Duplicating shellacs is way beyond my paygrade.

Before I relocated here in Salina, I dumped a Rek-O-Kut transcription lathe and some mystery 10" (17") blanks. That lathe was gifted to me in High Screwel. I've had a bad habit of never discarding anything....lol

Bri

[I dumped a Rek-O-Kut transcription lathe] -- I used to have a Rek-O-Kut broadcast transcription turntable during my junior and senior years in high-school. Then, I added a QRK broadcast transcription turntable and outfitted it with a GRAY Research tonearm!!! Back then, I only wanted the best turntables, tonearms and phono-cartridges to be used when playing my original Beatles, Kinks, Dave Clark 5 and other '60s bands. And, in fact, I even -- STILL HAVE -- all of those original issue albums (about 1,500 in total) in pristine condition in my "radio production studio" that I built down in my basement here. It breaks my heart in realizing that one-day I'm gonna havta get rid of them, hopefully by finding a collector who would fully appreciate all of what they are and all of what they represent!!!

[Brian Roth owns QRP] -- MY BAD!!!.....I (wrongly) assumed that you had either owned and/or operated all of the businesses shown in your signature/tag line. I had no idea that you were just promoting friends of yours. In the future, I will be more careful when referring anyone to those websites. SORRY!!!

/

 

[Bebert81]

BEST OF LUCK!!!

Merci pour les contacts et les encouragements !

Going back to the OP's question..... no plant making "records" in 2025 can "press" anything that can withstand 150 gram tracking force. As Gold has indicated....with enough interest and attention... it is probable 1-offs can be created to withstand 140 G tracking. Duplicating shellacs is way beyond my paygrade.

That's the answer I get every time I contact a record pressing plant for my question. Generally they are very busy and desn't want to waste time on such a twisted question.

I found here German people selling an modern cutter machine. expensive but not unaffordable...

I have read this warning on FAQ of the the website : Is it possible, to cut any kind of blanks with this machine ? Yes, but be careful with lacquerdiscs ! The outcut groove is high flammable, nearly explosive !
I will contact them asap.

 

[Brian Roth]

When cutting masters for modern vinyl plating/pressing, the blanks are referred to as lacquers..an old- time name. The modern material coated on the aluminum disc is some sort of mystery, but it IS flammable.

During cutting of the lacquer, material that curls off the surface....."chip" (as is is called)..... is sucked from the surface and collected into a "jar" which is partially filled with water to prevent flaming mishaps. Hence. a vacuum pump is one part of a cutter. Vacuum also holds the blank lacquer to the rotating platter.

To emphasize the flammability of the coating applied to the aluminum disc, one of two factories in the world still making them burned to the ground in 2020:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Masters_Corporation_fire

The current production from the last factory in Japan seems to be almost shared by the cutting studios in sort of a "gentlemen's agreement". No one decides to hoard the production....at least from my viewpoint. I think list member Paul Gold might agree.

BTW, I am NOT a cutting engineer like Gold is. I keep the platter spinnng, the cutting amp pushing power into the cutting head, and the analog playback tape machines/digital-source playback stuff feeding audio into the analog processing system.

Clueless how to reliably create a one-off (or make production copies) of a disc that can withstand 150G tracking force. I defer to Mr. Gold for further ideas.

Bri

 

[MidnightArrakis]

To emphasize the flammability of the coating applied to the aluminum disc, one of two factories in the world still making them burned to the ground in 2020:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Masters_Corporation_fire

[one of two factories in the world still making them burned to the ground in 2020] -- I remember reading about that horrendous event back then and I felt my own "pain" about the loss of that facility due to my own personal attachments to vinyl.

[direct metal mastering, a costly method of producing records with copper instead of lacquer] -- Way back in the early '80s, I worked in an R&D laboratory facility called the "RCA VideoDisc Selecta-Vision Division". This was a 2-story high, 1/4-square mile behemoth of a building that contained -- EVERYTHING -- (i.e., administration, all engineering services, video-mastering, cutting, plating, video-disc production, video-disc player manufacturing, testing, etc., etc., etc.) required for the RCA Corporation to create and manufacture both the RCA VideoDisc discs and the RCA VideoDisc player!!! Here's a -- forbidden -- photo that I took of the "RCA VideoDisc PAL Mastering System" where I had custom-designed all of the 6U (10.50"-high) rack-mount chassis -- AND -- all of the PCBs that went into them (NOTE: Check out the audio signal-processing rack over on the far-right side):

>> ALL of the equipment shown within the center of the yellow circle are the rack-mount
chassis and PCBs that I had designed for this "VideoDisc Mastering System". In addition, I
had also specified and sourced the 19" rack vendor, performed the mechanical designs of
their customization for the laboratory requirements, performed all of the rack-equipment
integration and installation -- AND!!! -- I had also installed over 1/4-mile of various types
of coax cables in order to wire this whole system up!!! This was all done back in 1983!!! <<


The VideoDisc "Master Disc's" were cut into these around 12-pound(?) -- SOLID COPPER -- discs, which is what the metallized "stampers" were made from for the production discs. At the time, after the "Master Disc" was cut and a certain number of stampers were made from them, the "Master Disc's" were simply discarded. Since these "Master Disc's" looked so cool (to me!!!), I managed to make-off with one of the masters and I even still have it right here-at-home!!! You should see the rainbow of colors that gleans off of this disc when it refracts and reflects the light. FAR-OUT!!!.....

/

 

[Gold]

The VideoDisc "Master Disc's" were cut into these around 12-pound(?) -- SOLID COPPER -- discs, which is what the metallized "stampers" were made from for the production discs.

Dollars to donuts the master disc was a copper plated steel disc. The technology was the same as Direct Metal Mastering.

Bebert81: I'm curious what about this style of playback do you find attractive? In general the faster a disc spins the higher the fidelity. 78RPM has the potential to beat 45RPM in sound quality and level. Some microgroove 78RPM LP's from the mid 1950's sound stunningly good.

That said the old gramophone's made to reproduce wide groove shellac records have severely limited frequency response and level capability. On the one hand 78 is hi-fi. On the other hand it is usually lo-fi.