Motor run/start cap for tube psu

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Tubetec

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Nov 18, 2015
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I see motor run caps come upto 275uf now for about 10 euros , The ESR is about .018 ohms @1khz , I tested some from the junk pile mostly way below  spec in capacity terms and with Esr's about ten times what a new component measures.

I was wondering how these might work as psu filter caps ,with LC and RC sections , It looks like they would give a good reduction in mains and rectifier noise compared to electro's ,250Vac would probably be adequate for the Ht voltages associated with audio preamps  ,these caps will probably only ever take a fraction of the current they might see under full ac mains and motor load in a valve psu ,so would probably last a lifetime and not suffer the same drift in capacity or ESR  thats seen in electrolytics .The other thing is they say a foil cap sounds better than an electrolytic ten times the size . I did try 30 -50 uf motor caps in valve power amps years ago ,very pleased with the noise levels on the ht ,250-270uf in conjunction with chokes should give outstanding  performance ,not as compact as electrolytics of course though .
 
I can probably get a trade pricelist on  Monday for you Ian , they have  have almost all values of motor cap in stock , from 1 uf upto 270uf  ,250 vac , insulated in black phenolic with spade connectors,smaller sizes are generally  wire ended plastic sealed ,and some plain metal cased ones and others at 450volts.

 

 
Modern low-price Run caps may be improved Electrolytic.

I don't know how to tell the difference except to split the case and try Litmus test on the paper. (Modern electrolytics are not "wet", and may not even be damp.)
 
PRR said:
Modern low-price Run caps may be improved Electrolytic.

I don't know how to tell the difference except to split the case and try Litmus test on the paper. (Modern electrolytics are not "wet", and may not even be damp.)

Electrolytics explode it you connect them directly across the mains - I know because I used to do that when I was a kid. Film types did not exist then so I don't know if they do the same or not.

Cheers

Ian
 
Why bother when you can get 180uF 420V for £2.29 each, 10,000 hours.

https://uk.farnell.com/rubycon/420bxw180mefr18x45/cap-180-f-420v-20/dp/2480411?sf=731%2C507&pf=110014774%2C110114112%2C110044919%2C110175108&krypto=nkYA5aUGes0HPFS36Ei9i9GA%2BRzmTLvFaggr6wQU8A3Q5bvnaYRGKdf%2F6eQLRFcYhJLSCasIZJ8aXIrhoD7ylYN%2FD3i5XlNkXoumQQVHjzBAOrroiD5%2B%2FOEd9VHG6%2FEEF5yBdZUmpsxI%2FSsGruuxcnSaSl7CW9M2eMOfLl23Y%2Fk2WAWowXYdLYosJp64qQmAET3%2FmNAdFJwtWL%2Bbp007KK4MEljE8VEW6Rqstb6R7II%3D&ddkey=https%3Aen-GB%2FElement14_United_Kingdom%2Fw%2Fc%2Fpassive-components%2Fcapacitors%2Faluminium-electrolytic-capacitors

DaveP

 
These caps arent polarised , I guesss the only way they could be electrolytic is if they are in fact two caps like non polarised electro's . I did  see a used one open from the end ,does look like paper/foil ,but hard to tell without unwinding and checking the foils ,two foils would suggest foilpaper ,three might suggest electrolytic . The black bakelite cased ones do have a vent very much like an electrolytic , the white cased ones are normally expoxied around the terminals .

I just browser searched , yes Prr your right  ,the black cased are non polar aluminum electrolytic motor start caps , designed for intermittant use . Foil motor run would inevitably be  larger size , 50-70uf would be more normal values.

Another avenue I'm needing to learn about is VFD's , or variable frequency ac drives , these are providing more and more economic speed/ torque control of ac motors ,and all the parameters can be easily tweaked over cat 5 if nessesary .
I may end up trying a VFD myself to speed control the synchronous motor in my watkins copicat ,Ive been messing around with dc motors on it for a while without much success ,so maybe I'll  return to the original mains motor with a  mini Chinese VFD .
I was also wondering how a VFD might do on reel to reel tape recorders to control the capstan motor speed .

The boss also asked about designing a moblie motor test jig , basically a frame with a motor mount ,coupled to a generator with resistive braking and fan cooling , which also incorporates  strain sensors to plot torque  rpm and vibration , could be VFD powered  , a report with graphs could then be produced on-site ,and allow customers and our road bound service guys better evaluate motors and also catch impending fault conditions premptively .  Tying in all the sensors and control voltages into a small microprocessor so it was totally self contained would be nice , but a small open source program on a laptop or tablet to run a test sequence on the VFD , integrate the data from sensors, and compile a performance report would be an incredibly usefull tool , such things do exist ,but usually they are proprietary systems costing  tens of thousands of dollars .
Of course it probably could be made even simpler by  having the VFD cycle  through a preset test sequence , while the tech guy simply fills in values off the instruments  on the tablet , but a totally automated testing unit in the back of the van would give the customer ,where down time is money ,especially if its unschedualed ,great reassurance everything is running 'tickety boo' and help give a real professional feel to our side of the bargain . I did contact a company in the US already ,they do dyno's mainly to measure Hp in V8's, that most indulgent of American obsessions  , they have nicely engineered  dynos with all the sensors embedded ,bolt it up , plug it in to the proprietary software and bang you've got all your gauges and dials up on screen , I did ask about integration of their sensors into thrid party or open source , and I got the impression I was being a bit of a spoil sport , I didnt press them on if they would sell me the hardware without the software ,yet  :D They are very willing to help though , so I'll contact them back this week .

So I guess tomorrow its gloves off  and hack out the details with the boss ,Im happy enough on a starters rate while learning to bust  up motors on the shop floor ,but I think the electronic tech side of things might deserve a better hourly rate , always a bit of poker facing going on in these situations . One of lads last week had to do a convair belt motor as used in the check out at your local supermarket , about 2 liters of snot green industrial lube poured out after gentle heating with Oxy/Acetylene torch ,and a belt of a large alloy mallet , theres nothing polite about this kind of work ,you dont know what kinda of shite such as PCBs have been added to the oils in 'sealed' systems . Another concern is being a smoker in a workplace of this kind ,bad residues on the hands can end up being smoked ,unless you wash very carefully , its rubber gloves for me from now on on the shop floor  , and I'll even wash the crap residue left by the gloves off before I go on smoke break . Even still  its a really dirty job and I want to  be sure Im taking every precaution I need to to protect my health .
 
I want to  be sure I'm taking every precaution I need to to protect my health
.
Quiting smoking seems an obvious first step?

If you want to control heavy AC loads, then solid state relays might be the way to.

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/solid-state-relays/0346918/

DaveP
 
Theres a bit of history to the working mans smoke you may not have heard ,
in the days before store bought cigs , the workers in the industrial revolution days quickly realised the smokers who rolled their own were plagued with ill health and an early death , hence the popularity of the pre rolled cigarette , it wasnt the tobacco that was killing them, it was the  industrial gunk from on their hands , added to the cigarette in the process of rolling . Now tobacco is produced industrially the same gank ends up in the tobacco from the machines , well ,I guess if there already warning you its cancerous their covering themselves and any industrial polutants added in the processing is all on the tin , benzene for instance  isnt something  found naturally in the tobacco plant , its a by product of industrial production .

I do have to seriously reconsider my smoking habbits in any case , Ive smoked a good 25 years now and even though my health is good , my body is telling me give up . Smoking aside there are other several other ways noxious industrial crap can find its way into you ,inhalation , via mouth or through the skin . theres the stuff thats normally confined to sealed electrical systems , often pcb based ,thats nasty in itself ,but if you have electric arcs/heat and heavy metal particals in the mix ,you dont need that ending up on your dinner.

Apologies to those who lost interest in this somewhat long meandering post . :D
 
Theres a bit of history to the working mans smoke you may not have heard
I have known about this effect since the 80's.  We used to make cadmium sulphide, (used in the LA-2A  light dependent resistors).  The guys were told to wash their hands before smoking roll-ups.

When I occasionally come across women who smoke here in France, I tell them they are too beautiful to smoke.  In your case you are obviously too smart to smoke :-\.  I don't know the current situation in Ireland, but in the UK it is almost only the people who live on council estates who smoke.  We are all living longer and its far better to live with functioning lungs and without bits of our mouths and throat chopped out as I have seen with my relatives and next door neighbour.

Best
DaveP

 
All things being equal ,and now that obiesity is set to be the set to become the biggest threat to human health ,shouldn't we have pictures of huge fat dead people on our Macdonalds happy meals and poisoniously sugary drinks tins  ?  Next thing to happen here is apparently a cancer warning on our alcoholic beverages .
From what we've agreed on already , industrial workers  who smoke are at a far greater risk of cancer ,simply attributing  cancers to tobacco alone is bull ,career and the substances you handle in your working life and if you happen to be a smoker are all contributary factors  . Cancer stats of industrial workers the far side of the harbour from me tell their own story , the prevailing wind blowing the emissions from huge chemical plants in their face ,and as you correctly pointed out a disproportionate number of working class people smoke ,I think cancer is several times the national average in certain communities ,there are litterally roads where everyone died of cancer ,the ground water itself contains industrial pollutants.
 

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