noise in guitar amps

GroupDIY Audio Forum

Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Kit

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 13, 2006
Messages
467
Location
Sweden
Please correct me if im wrong...

For lowest possible s/n ratio in tube mic-press we use a step-up transformer at the input, the reason for doing this is so that any noise is dominated by source noise and not circuit noise, could a similiar technique
be used at the input of a guitar amp, a low noise current device driving the primary of a step-up transformer and then on to the tube circuit? Or is this a waste of time and money?
 
[quote author="Kit"]Please correct me if im wrong...

For lowest possible s/n ratio in tube mic-press we use a step-up transformer at the input, the reason for doing this is so that any noise is dominated by source noise and not circuit noise, could a similiar technique
be used at the input of a guitar amp, a low noise current device driving the primary of a step-up transformer and then on to the tube circuit? Or is this a waste of time and money?[/quote]

You mean I think highest possible s/n ratio.

Noise of an amplifying device typically has two components: voltage ("series") noise and current ("parallel") noise. For the optimal s/n, where the total noise is dominated by the source noise, you (roughly speaking) want the ratio of the noise voltage density to the current noise density to be equal to the source impedance. That ratio is sometimes called the noise resistance.

Transformers help us to adjust this "noise matching" by (to a first approximation) transforming the impedance of the source to "noise match" that of the amplifier. Since mics are usually low Z and many preamp inputs (especially tubes) work best from a noise perspective at higher Z's, trafos are used to take the mic Z and have it appear to be much larger.

To answer your question we need to know the impedance of your source---what does the pickup look like, in terms of impedance? Also, it probably wants to be loaded by a certain impedance to have the desired frequency response. And we need to know the optimal Z that the amplifier would see for it to make its minimum noise contribution. Then we can determine if a trafo would help, and if so what turns ratio would be best. If a pickup had super-high impedance we might even step the impedance down, at least in principle, especially if the amplifier had a low noise resistance.
 
"You mean I think highest possible s/n ratio. "

Of course :oops:

Most guitar pickups have a DC resistance of about 5-10K,
but i have no clue about the reactance of the coil so i dont know the impedance. However, most people like the sound of their pickups when loaded by 470k-1M, i like it a bit lower because i tend to roll of most of the highs in the EQ anyway.
As for the amplifier i was thinking about using a ECC82 in a current feedback configuration, since i have got a bunch of them.
 
most effective signal boost is (in case of passive pickups) -before- losses occur, i.e. before the cable. anything that happens after the cable, amplifies whatever happened beween pickup and your guitar amp.

to combat this, you need low noise preamp/booster -inside- your guitar (or belt clip), which can drive your cables/transformers/whatever gear comfortably.
 
Here's the only technically credible document I've seen regarding the impedance of guitar pickups.

Most manufacturers only tell you the DC resistance, and it's become a widespread misconception among users that this equals the "impedance" of the pickup. But it's not as simple as that.

A tube grid is actually quite a good match for the high source impedance of a typical guitar pickup. You'd never be able to wind a transformer with a high enough primary inductance (and low enough distributed capacitance) to work as well. As far as noise--again, the pickup and the tube are a good match.
 
[quote author="tv"]most effective signal boost is (in case of passive pickups) -before- losses occur, i.e. before the cable. anything that happens after the cable, amplifies whatever happened beween pickup and your guitar amp.

to combat this, you need low noise preamp/booster -inside- your guitar (or belt clip), which can drive your cables/transformers/whatever gear comfortably.[/quote]

Heartily agree!
 
[quote author="NewYorkDave"]Here's the only technically credible document I've seen regarding the impedance of guitar pickups:

Most manufacturers only tell you the DC resistance, and it's become a widespread misconception among users that this equals the "impedance" of the pickup. But it's not as simple as that.[/quote]

Agreed. The situation is similar with phono cartridges, especially moving-magnet types. And it is complicated for noise anaylsis by the RIAA equalization. Thanks for that ref!
 
> the input of a guitar amp, a low noise current device driving the primary of a step-up transformer

Screw the theory.

Leo Fender sat there and wound pickups for "best performance".

If you are cheap, going direct into a vacuum tube, FET, or low-current BJT, you will not do any better than to stick with the classic pickup designs.

If you are rich, you can wind to a very low impedance, like 150 ohms, and go into a standard microphone input. Les Paul did this, and "recording" pickups like his were available. The low impedance balanced line makes line length uncritical, and reduces hum pickup in the line.

But line capacitance is PART of classic guitar sound. It rolls-out the super-highs which tend to grate. It resonates with the self-inductance to produce a boost.... where?

> credible document I've seen

Silly EEs. Well, OK, they divide and conquer; they measured an unplayable pickup, one with no cable on it. Their "Hot Strat" measurements imply 75pFd capacitance. Any in-use pickup has 100-1,000pFd hanging on it, in the cable.

> what does the pickup look like, in terms of impedance?

From the EE's data, a pickup is a ~5H inductor with 5K winding resistance, ~100pFd winding capacitance. In real life it will have 10pFd to 1,000pFd more capacitance in the cable, and 470K-5Meg+100pFd in the amplifier.

Taking 5H, 5K, 100,300,1000pFd, and 2Meg, I get these impedance curves.
GitZ.gif


The log-frequency scale is often useful. But for noise estimation in a flat amp, the linear frequency scale lets us eyeball the noise contribution. Though Z is 5K-50K over most of the musical band, it rises to ~1Meg at a resonance that depends on the pickup and the cable length. But the resonance is narrow. I'd expect the overall noise to be somewhat like a 50K-200K resistor.

Using a SPICE method I do not understand, I got 7 microVolts noise summed 80Hz-8KHz. (Guitar extends to 80Hz and no big cone has much total output at 8KHz.)

Using a rule of thumb I do understand, I get ~6uV noise. Improbably good agreement.

A 12AX7 can have noise below 3uV, if you are lucky; over 20uV if you get a hissy one. Splitting the difference, a large number of 12AX7 have noise below 8uV.

Leo was no fool. He got the pickup self-noise output above the noise of most 12AX7s. If wound with fewer turns, music output would be lower but total noise would not change much, so worse S/N. Winding with more turns would not improve S/N much, would lower the winding-cable resonance frequency, and most important the winding is already annoyingly fine and many-turn.

There is a matching too. Gain, bandwidth, and noise are ultimately limited by capacitance. The coil has ~100pFd, a minimum cable has 100pFd, a high-gain triode has 100pFd. Changing any one part would not change the total capacitance much. The player may add cable (100pFd is only 3 feet), get resonance at a lower frequency, clobber the extreme highs. Player's Choice; Kit does seem to be wanting less highs.

There is a fairly wide range of pickup values, but not incredibly wide. Throwing-out the extreme cases, 2.2H to 7H of inductance. Coil resistance matters hardly at all for reasonable values of grid resistor; they quote it only because it seems obvious, and is routinely measured to cast-out open coils. The other major variable is cable length. Grid resistor has a minor influence at resonance, unless it is very small (under 470K) in which case the peak is knocked-down.
 
[quote author="PRR"]
Silly EEs. [/quote]

More like silly physicists. "Assume a spherical pickup with no mass..."

So what about the guitar's on-board vol and tone circuits. Twiddling with those makes things even more interesting...

A P
 
Thanks, everybody for your replys.

Like expected, it seems there is nothing to gain from my theory, the old boys at fender probably got it right in the 50´s.

I still have some question about noise though,
i found some papers on the web and it states that we can calculate the noise voltage in a resistor or conductor by

Vn=2*sqrt k*R*T*f

This makes sense to me.

It also states that thermal noise in a triode is equivalent to a resistor in series with the grid whose value is given by

Rn=2,5/Gm

This doesn´t make sense to me.
Is Rn the optimum input resistor value for a given Gm?
 
That would be an expression (not sure at the moment if it is quite correct, although it's the right dependence) for voltage noise. Current noise, although very low for normally-biased tubes, is the other component that enters into the optimal source impedance calculation.
 
But line capacitance is PART of classic guitar sound. It rolls-out the super-highs which tend to grate.

I've seen 1M/20pf for guitars and 500k/68pf for bass -inputs- stated as input impendance. It's also dependant on whether your instrument has 250k or 500k volume/balance pots. Ymmv also regarding use of singlecoils/humbuckers. I assume passive pickups.

Cable capacitance and impendance - I'll leave that to experts, but I think it can be deducted to simple parallel RC for real-life use.

Using a simple opamp buffer (with proper in/out impendance) in close proximity to pickups can solve much problems. Key to -tone- is however getting impendances to match to your pickups, which can be resolved easily by paralleling resistors to your volume pot to damp it a bit (if sound becomes -too open-).
 
[quote author="Kit"]bcarso, how do we calculate current noise?[/quote]

If the current noise is due to resistors it's just the standard formula for noise voltage divided by the resistance value. The resistor is in parallel with the part of the circuit involved.

If it is due to current passing through a potential barrier, like diode leakage current or grid leakage, it typically has (at least) "shot" noise, with the spectral density per sq root Hz given by sq root of 2*qe*I, where I is the magnitude of the current and qe is the charge of an electron, about 1.6*10^-19 coulombs.
 
I think current noise, for most triodes, can be safely ignored; it's pretty darned low.

And for guitar pickups, the thermal noise is generated by the DC resistance of the pickup. Any additional resistance in series (volume or tone control) adds to that DC resistance.

About the tube equivalent Rn: that's the value of resistor that would have the same noise level as the tube. For a triode that's 2.5/gm where gm is in mho -- excuse me, Siemenses.

To the equivalent noise of the tube you have to add the noise of the plate resistor; to get the equivalent input noise resistance of that you divide by the square of the tube's gain.

To work an example: let's say you have a 12AX7 working at 0.8mA with about 160V on the plate and a 300V supply. That means the plate resistor is 140/.0008, or 175k. Bypassed cathode resistor, so that don't count.

The gm of that tube under those conditions is 1.45mS, so the equivalent noise resistance is 2.5/.00145, or 1724 ohms. If the tube has a gain of 40x (guesswork on my part but probably close to right), then the contribution of the plate resistor is 175k/1600, or 109 ohms. Add that to the equivalent noise resistance and you get a total equivalent noise resistance of 1833 ohms.

It's a rule of thumb that for the noise contribution of an active stage to be insignificant (<1dB increase) its equivalent noise resistance should be 25% or less of the source's resistance. Put the other way, the source's resistance should be 4x the active stage's equivalent noise resistance. So, in the case of our 12AX7 stage, if the source resistance is >= 4 x 1833, or 7332 ohms, the 12AX7 will not add significant noise to its inherent Johnson noise.

Many guitars qualify, when you add in the controls. So, in practice, a tube stage like this is already a good noise match for an electric guitar.

Leo knew.

Peace,
Paul
 
Excellant link, Dave!

Those darn Fralins, no wonder. Look at the gauss.

Those poor kids could have put a micrometer on the pickups to get wire size, darn it!
All those samples and they forgot to get one of the most important specs.

Still cool.


Leo was smart, but I bet it was all done by ear.
 
It was. Leo didn't play, but he had definite ideas of what constituted a good guitar tone. He didn't like the low-midrange heavy tone that had characterized the electric sound before he came along; his name for that muddy buildup in the 250-400Hz range was "fluff." He'd have a guitar tuned to an open chord on the bench for when he wanted to tweak electronics. Tweak, strum, listen...
 
There ws that "Doc" guy, forgot the name.
I think he might have been more of a prop head.
Have to read the books Iguess.
 
Great info, thanks.

I will try and post some soundclips and pictures when/if i finish this thing,
so far its working out pretty good. The poweramp and associated components is in place and sounding good. I found it quite hard to get the phase inverter to clip in the "right" way, but it´s alright now i think.
Well, im off to wrestle my soldering iron...
 
> noise voltage in a resistor or conductor by
Vn=2*sqrt k*R*T*f
This makes sense to me.
It also states that thermal noise in a triode is equivalent to a resistor in series with the grid whose value is given by
Rn=2,5/Gm
This doesn´t make sense to me.


1/Gm is a resistance, the "cathode resistance" like the plate resistance but at the other end of the tube.

So put that resistance in your first formula, noise comes out.

Where did that "2.5" come from???? From "T" in the first formula. We normally write 300K for resistors laying around a chassis. bcarso would write 100K for his deep-cooled radio-telescope preamps. The cathode resistance of a thermionic device is red-hot. Its temperature is 2.5 or 3 times higher than room temperature.

> Is Rn the optimum input resistor value for a given Gm?

No. Compute the noise-voltage for Rn at the working Gm and temperature. Find the noise-current. Divide. That's your noise-optimum source impedance.

Noise current for vacuum tubes is VERY low. Optimum source impedance works out to several hundred Megs. If we really had free choice of source impedance, we'd wind for that. But a 100Meg transformer or pickup winding facing the universal capacitance will not pass audio. A 100Meg source driving a 3-foot/1m 100pFd cable or a 100pFd grid would roll-off everything above 16Hz.

How close to 100Megs can we get without excess treble loss? 100K driving 100pFd is 16KHz. That's the general size of maximum impedance we can use in audio. In wound-coils driving tubes, there is 30-100pFd in the tube and 50-300pFd in the coil, so for full-range 20KHz audio we may have to wind only 50K or 20K. A 200 ohm mike driving a 1:10 transformer is 20K. If we follow Jensen and ask for flat response to far above 100KHz, we may have to wind only 1K: 200 ohms and 1:2 transformer.

Pickups the same as the mike except we get the step-up by winding many turns on the pickup. The downside is the line from pickup to amp is sensitive to capacitance; we get away with it because guitar cords may be short and we don't really want 100KHz or even 15KHz response. For a 300-foot mike line flat to >15KHz, we need to keep things down to 50-600 ohms and do the step-up at the amplifier end.

What is the typical value of tube noise? Many suitable tubes have Gm near 1,000uMho (1 mS), which is equivalent to a 1K resistor. But it is a HOT 1K resistor, and formula 2 says it will hiss like a 2.5K resistor. A rule of thumb says this is about 0.7 microVolts over the hi-fi audio band. Actually we often run input tubes at lower current (and lower Gm) than the book-values, because B+ hum is also "noise" and lower current means cheaper buzz-filters. 1uV may be a better guess. Tests and experience show that actual noise may be 0.5uV for fat triodes with lots of current to 2uV for a low-current triode. That's assuming no flaw in the tube (no dirt on the cathode coating, no gas). If you buy a dozen well-made tubes, you should get several with noise this low, some with a little more noise, and a couple with lots more noise. In the gitar-amp business, you can't buy a dozen tubes for every socket: you design the system so that the great majority of tubes will work OK, so that very few finished amps wind up hissy and need tube-swap. Looks like 5uV or 10uV is a good goal for production. That gives 60dB S/N on a 5mV phono pickup.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top