Noob needs help with z5600a II mic repair

[Adam Frandsen]

Unlike society, there are only 2 genders when it comes to connectors.

This is the level I am dealing with here… So who is being serious and who isn’t? It is indeed very personally revealing

 

[pucho812]

This is the level I am dealing with here… So who is being serious and who isn’t? It is indeed very personally revealing

A little levity can be good. I have a 27-28 page thread in the brewery full of jokes, some are even funny.

 

[JohnRoberts]

If by children you are referring to me, I am a 40-year-old man

as often happens my humor missed the mark... This is a twist on the old refrain when the parents or grownups are fighting and it scares the children. On an internet forum that are many lurkers who are reluctant to post. Bad behavior by the "adults" (cough) scares some of them from posting..

If I meant to call you out I would have, but I did not. I was trying to generally damp down all the negative energy.
===
Oh to be only 40 again... Kids today.

JR

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Seems like the first one to have insults thrown at him was me

Exactly what I said...

So I neither started anything, nor did I seek to feel insulted.

Your reaction to JR's post shows you have a quite sensitive skin.

you accused me of giving underserved flak to Khron, whilst that was not the case

Oh but it looked very much like it.
Rmemeber this group is very international, and not everybody has the same finesse regarding language and customs.
Many times I had to think over a post wondering if it was deliberately aggressive or just awkward.

 

[Nen'O]

I have of course tried several different setups for recording with professional audio engineers, both in halls and in studios, and it has always been a struggle to capture all the colors of the voice, whether with orchestra or piano, often the hall mics catch the most realistic sound, but often the balance is then off. Then of course the mixing of the different mics is important. My own setup includes several mics, of which I have the z5600a II, a stereo pair of sE 8s cardioid and an NT2A with me here in Taiwan. I use the Audient Evo interface to record, doesn’t have a ton of gain, but I love the auto gain function, it works well and is fast and I generally think it sounds good. It also generally measures quite well according to the audio forums I have checked out and the videos I have watched. It is not state of the art equipment, but it is good and I will upgrade once I feel it is necessary. I record voice and piano mostly myself, and I find that using the stereo pair plus a centered large condenser on the vocals captures it like i want it to. I will consider what you said about changing the audio transformer, would you have any suggestions already? I stand far enough away from the mic that there are no plosives, we are talking 80-100db of singing, so I am 1.5 to a few meters away depending on the repertoire. I find that it can work either way - pointing/angling the mics downward or upwards. I mix and master on a MicroiDSD dac/heaphone amp with a pair of HD800s, I track vocals with a pair of closed focals and a pair of closed audio technica. My main stereo setup is a quad 80 tube mono block system, primaluna preamp and a pro-ject rs2 DAC. Thanks again for such a detailed response! EDIT: Since I will install a PK-47 capsule on the mic, could the LL1969 from lundahl be a good contender? Also reading about swapping the transformer makes me doubt that I can do it myself, since many parts of the mic and psu may need to be reworked…

Hi Adam,

changing Chinese stock output transformer in tube mics makes huge difference, especially for acoustic instruments and percussions recording where transient recovery maters. Some says it subtle but to me it makes all the difference.

LL1969 would be great candidate for this mic if it can fit in mics body.
Other candidates:
Cinemag CM 2480
UTM 0547
I got great results with Advaced audio BV 18.
3U audio sell’s transformers for tube mics as well.

Rode NT2A with K47 might be a winner for vocal recording in your case. In generally Schoeps circuit with good capsule is my first choice for classical music recording.

Rode HF1 capsule you take out from NT2 A is maybe even better choice for Z5600 over k47.

HF1 capsule in tube mic with Philips Mullard 12AT7 WA tube is killer combination as those tube tame highs in very musical way.


Tube mics are not something I would use for opera or classical music as spot mics. Tube mics compress and colour sound, quiet parts won’t sound the same as loud parts. which is great for rock, pop even jazz but not so good for classical or opera.


If you have chance try Earthworks microphones as a spot mic or stereo pair for vocal or instruments. You will never look for another mic after hearing those in action

Talk to Vami sound, they made budget mic which might be perfect choice for opera and classical recordings.

Don’t forget to send us some files of what you do…. At the end It’s all about the music …

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

Since I will install a PK-47 capsule on the mic, could the LL1969 from lundahl be a good contender? Also reading about swapping the transformer makes me doubt that I can do it myself, since many parts of the mic and psu may need to be reworked…

Yes the Lundahl LL1969 would be a good choice to accompany the PK47 capsule. As to getting it to fit you would need to know the footprint of the existing transformer to work out a way to drop the LL1969 in. This would involve having a board layout diagram with a proper schematic or tracing the existing transformer connections at the board and looking at the physical pin spacing and seeing if the LL1969 is a drop-in or you need to make a sub board with the transformer mounted and link wires run to the correct spots.
Here’s a link to the schematic for the LL1969:
http://www.lundahl.se/wp-content/uploads/datasheets/1969.pdfAlso here’s a link to a tube comparison chart which may be helpful for choosing a replacement for your ECC83:
https://www.thetubestore.com/12ax7-tube-reviews-chart
Edit:
As a footnote it’s worth looking at a ribbon mic as an accompaniment to a condenser for your type of vocals - there are lots of Royer R121 clones out there. I use either a Coles 4038 or a 4033 dual element in conjunction with an AKG C12 VR.

 

[Khron]

As to getting it to fit you would need to know the footprint of the existing transformer to work out a way to drop the LL1969 in. This would involve having a board layout diagram with a proper schematic or tracing the existing transformer connections at the board and looking at the physical pin spacing and seeing if the LL1969 is a drop-in or you need to make a sub board with the transformer mounted and link wires run to the correct spots.

The transformer is not PCB-mounted, but housed within the metal cylinder at the bottom of the microphone housing.

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

The transformer is not PCB-mounted, but housed within the metal cylinder at the bottom of the microphone housing.

Ah that makes it a bit trickier to do unless the LL1969 will fit in that cavity - may be room in the MU-metal housing if it comes apart - the LL1969 is 36 x 22 x 16mm case size not including pins

 

[Khron]

Ah that makes it a bit trickier to do unless the LL1969 will fit in that cavity - may be room in the MU-metal housing if it comes apart - the LL1969 is 36 x 22 x 16mm case size not including pins

Looks more or less roomy, but i / we have no idea how much wiring is stuffed in there as well.

https://groupdiy.com/threads/noob-needs-help-with-z5600a-ii-mic-repair.84465/post-1096957
At least in the sE2200A's that i have, which are slimmer than this, there's also some open-cell foam in there, to prevent rattling around.

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

The old square box in a round hole syndrome. The Sowter 1303 comes in various case options, rectangular and cylindrical, but looking at the diameter of 34mm it’s bigger than the LL1969 in its can.

 

[Adam Frandsen]

Yes the Lundahl LL1969 would be a good choice to accompany the PK47 capsule. As to getting it to fit you would need to know the footprint of the existing transformer to work out a way to drop the LL1969 in. This would involve having a board layout diagram with a proper schematic or tracing the existing transformer connections at the board and looking at the physical pin spacing and seeing if the LL1969 is a drop-in or you need to make a sub board with the transformer mounted and link wires run to the correct spots.
Here’s a link to the schematic for the LL1969:
http://www.lundahl.se/wp-content/uploads/datasheets/1969.pdfAlso here’s a link to a tube comparison chart which may be helpful for choosing a replacement for your ECC83:
https://www.thetubestore.com/12ax7-tube-reviews-chart
Edit:
As a footnote it’s worth looking at a ribbon mic as an accompaniment to a condenser for your type of vocals - there are lots of Royer R121 clones out there. I use either a Coles 4038 or a 4033 dual element in conjunction with an AKG C12 VR.

Yes, good advice - I would love to have one, have to save up a little.

 

[Adam Frandsen]

Hi Adam,

changing Chinese stock output transformer in tube mics makes huge difference, especially for acoustic instruments and percussions recording where transient recovery maters. Some says it subtle but to me it makes all the difference.

LL1969 would be great candidate for this mic if it can fit in mics body.
Other candidates:
Cinemag CM 2480
UTM 0547
I got great results with Advaced audio BV 18.
3U audio sell’s transformers for tube mics as well.

Rode NT2A with K47 might be a winner for vocal recording in your case. In generally Schoeps circuit with good capsule is my first choice for classical music recording.

Rode HF1 capsule you take out from NT2 A is maybe even better choice for Z5600 over k47.

HF1 capsule in tube mic with Philips Mullard 12AT7 WA tube is killer combination as those tube tame highs in very musical way.


Tube mics are not something I would use for opera or classical music as spot mics. Tube mics compress and colour sound, quiet parts won’t sound the same as loud parts. which is great for rock, pop even jazz but not so good for classical or opera.


If you have chance try Earthworks microphones as a spot mic or stereo pair for vocal or instruments. You will never look for another mic after hearing those in action

Talk to Vami sound, they made budget mic which might be perfect choice for opera and classical recordings.

Don’t forget to send us some files of what you do…. At the end It’s all about the music …

What you say about using the HF1 in the z5600 instead is really interesting, will have to give that some thought for sure! You may be right about tube mics, but I see many people use them (Neumann’s) when recording the vocals, example:

, and I quite like the results.

also: , (I see a rode ribbon in there too)

Think the voices sound fuller and richer and crispier than with just a u87 for example.

Earthworks I know of, but have never really heard them, but I have done some research of course and would love to try one at some point, also the Shure ksm137 is on my list, as it is one of the best mics I HAVE heard for the price, speaking of Schoeps. Never heard of Vami Sound, but I will make sure to do some research! Edit: Now that I look at their website, I think I did visit it before…

And yes, once I get this project and some recordings finished, I will be sure to share - and yes, it is all about the music.

 

[Adam Frandsen]

Just a few pictures inside my mic - as you can see the soldering job from its last recapping is not very good and done from the wrong side(?) and there is burn damage to caps and resistors ... am I seeing this right?

 

[Adam Frandsen]

Here is the inside of someone else's mic

 

[Adam Frandsen]

I also cannot see if the two resistors soldered together are red or brown first so 250kohm or 150kohm, I believe the resistor there should be 300k according to the schematic, and at least one of those resistor bands look red to me...

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Looks like a clueless individual with poor skills has made a mess. No evidence that any electrolytics were replaced. All that solder flux and crud on the board isn't good where the high impedance nodes are. I guess they were too lazy (or afraid) to disassemble and solder from the correct side.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Looks like a clueless individual with poor skills has made a mess. No evidence that any electrolytics were replaced. All that solder flux and crud on the board isn't good where the high impedance nodes are. I guess they were too lazy (or afraid) to disassemble and solder from the correct side.

but how does it sound?

JR

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

The resistors soldered together first band is red, giving 250KΩ, they are in parallel giving 125KΩ - the pic you posted of someone else’s mic has a 100KΩ resistor in that place - your board number matches that of the other mics - SE06000.
I wouldn’t trust that schematic either - there appear to be 3 R3 resistors - one 51MΩ on the 0 - 120V line to the back diaphragm of the capsule connects to C2, one 51MΩ on the feed line to the backplate joins R1 1GΩ and between C9 and C10, one 1MΩ connects to K2-1 and C8??? The 300KΩ is R5 connected to the anode of the first tube stage pin 1 of the tube - I’m not sure why there’s a drop to 100KΩ - maybe there are other changes on your board.
I don’t see any burn damage - if there is it’s likely from someone using a soldering iron too close - I wouldn’t worry about that - you need to worry if resistors become discoloured/brown or caps the same or electrolytics with swollen tops or leakage out of the base.

 

[Adam Frandsen]

but how does it sound?

JR

It doesn’t sound right, and no matter what tube type i put in 12ay7, 12at7, ecc83, 5751 it needs the exact same amount of gain to reach the same volume… it sounds distant, weak and unrefined. As I stated in one of my first posts, the 8th pin of the socket in the PSU has no wire attached, I understand that it doesn’t have to have that necessarily, but since so many things are wrong in the mic already, and the first thing I did was replace a blown capacitor in the PSU that caused a terrible hum, I have to question everything about it. I know the color of the wires don’t have to match, but the red wire that has 180v written on the pcb inside the mic, that must be the voltage for the plate in the tube, is coincidentally also the only wire color not present amongst the wires attached to the socket in the PSU… One user here read the schematic as having the pattern dial connected to pin 3 and pin 4 being a second ground(?), but in my PSU pin 4 goes to the pattern dial… Frustrating and confusing…

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

Bottom line is someone has done some work on this and not cleaned up. I suggest you contact SE and inquire as to what value R5 should be (I am assuming here that pair of parallel resistors are R5). It could be that the value in this was originally 125KΩ and they used two resistors in parallel to double the wattage as in the other picture the resistor looks like a 1 or 2 watt resistor. It would make sense if the replacement resistors are 1/2 watt and replacing a 1 watt.