Open source project: Customized mixing console

[mmadu]

[Any suggestions are welcome!] -- HEY!!! >> I WOULD NOT SEND YOUR GERBER FILES OUT FOR FABRICATION JUST YET, AS THERE ARE SOME MAJOR ISSUES WITHIN THEM!!! << >> I AM NOT KIDDING!!!

I have downloaded your -- Gerber_PCB1_2024-4-15.zip -- file and took a quick look at what you have. What I found was not only is your entire PCB layout -- upside-down -- in relation to what is being shown as your 0/0 Datum, but there are also bits of silkscreen and a bunch of drill-hits located at -- X = -1430mm / Y = -1430mm from your 0/0 point!!! Once your PCB-fabricator sees these anomalies, they will certainly be contacting you to let you know that your PCB -- CANNOT -- be fabricated!!! For us Americans, what I am saying is.....you have silkscreen and drill-hits that are over >> 4-FEET AWAY FROM THE "0/0" DATUM OF YOUR PCB <<!!! I wouldn't do it!!!

Right now, it is after 9:00 AM in the morning and I have literally been awake all night!!! My going to bed right now means that I probably won't be getting up until sometime around mid-afternoon here. In any case, just as soon as I am able to, I will take a closer look at your GERBER and N/C Drill files and provide you with some screen-shots that will show you exactly how your GERBER and N/C Drill data are all messed up!!! From there, you can do whatever you need to, to correct the problems that I can see.

HANG ON!!! OK???

/

Thank you Midnight Arakis. I have checked the gerber file, but I have not found any silk screen or drilling files located at -1430, -1430

As you can see, some silk screens exceed the frame layer, but that is only for identification purposes. In multiple projects I have collaborated with my PCB manufacturer, these silk screens beyond the frame layer will not be manufactured, and I believe this is a consensus.

I certainly respect everything you know in commercial manufacturing, but it should be emphasized that this is a non professional project and I am not a professional designer. All I have done is to make this project operational. Forcing myself to follow the standards will cause me to lose interest in this project and abandon it

 

[SIXTYNINER]

Thank you Midnight Arakis. I have checked the gerber file, but I have not found any silk screen or drilling files located at -1430, -1430

As you can see, some silk screens exceed the frame layer, but that is only for identification purposes. In multiple projects I have collaborated with my PCB manufacturer, these silk screens beyond the frame layer will not be manufactured, and I believe this is a consensus.

I certainly respect everything you know in commercial manufacturing, but it should be emphasized that this is a non professional project and I am not a professional designer. All I have done is to make this project operational. Forcing myself to follow the standards will cause me to lose interest in this project and abandon it

.... After all, Diy is not also "try & error" ?

 

[MidnightArrakis]

Thank you Midnight Arrakis. I have checked the gerber file, but I have not found any silk screen or drilling files located at -1430, -1430

>> OK.....that's fine. Now.....I am -- NOT -- bragging here about myself or even anything remotely close, OK??? But, there is a significant difference between a "GERBER Viewer" (especially one that is also provided by the PCB-design program) and my rather expensive and pricey -- INDEPENDENTLY OPERATED -- "GERBER and N/C Drill Data Analysis & Editing" program. Here is an example:

About 16-years ago while working at a high-end video electronics company, I decided to one day install this program I use here-at-home at my job and I loaded in a few sets of the GERBER files that we had sent out previously to have our PCB's fabricated from. You can't imagine how shocked I was looking at my monitor and seeing how "totally screwed up" that these files were!!! So, I called our PCB-fabrication company and I told them what I was looking at. Their response back to me???.....

"Yeah.....your GERBER files are always screwed up like that when we get them from you!!! It usually takes us a little over half-an-hour to get everything to a point where we can fab your boards for you"!!! -- Weird, huh???

So.....I then asked him, "Why haven't you contacted me to let me know this"???

His reply???....."Our job is to provide you with working PCB's, so we go ahead and spend the time to fix your garbage GERBER files and get you the boards that you're paying for. We figure.....if we told you that your GERBER files are total garbage, then you just might go to another fabricator. So, we -- DON'T TELL YOU -- that your files are garbage and just go ahead and fix them as is needed. You pay for it in our increased setup time to prep your files"!!!

>> OK, now.....all of this brings up two points: 1) The PCB's are being fabricated with "garbage" GERBER and N/C Drill data files and, 2) -- HOW IS IT -- that an expensive and top-line industry-leading PCB-design software program can create -- GARBAGE -- output files and NOT be seen? After all.....this expensive PCB-design software program also has its own "GERBER Viewer" within it. Now what?

So, I call the "Tech Support" group at the PCB-design program headquarters and relate to them not only what I have discovered on my own by using this -- independent -- (important detail here) GERBER & N/C Drill analysis program, but also what I have been told by our PCB-fabrication vendor. Of course, they didn't believe me. But, eventually I was able to convince them that "something" has to be wrong with their program because both our PCB-fabricator and I see the same screwed-up images on our monitors and we are also both using different GERBER & N/C Drill data editing programs!!! So.....they reluctantly told me that they would look into the matter. GEE!!! THANKS!!!

About 10-days later the "Tech Support" guy calls me back and tells me this....."We related your issue to our developers and they told us here that what you are telling us "just can't be". However, we insisted that they look into the matter because both you and your PCB-fabricator are seeing the same incorrect data. After the developers looked at and analyzed our program code, they discovered two separate issues. The first issue they found was that there were some lines of code in the output creation files which prevented all of the files from being aligned with one another at their "0/0" datum point. The second issue that they discovered was in the "GERBER Viewer". Because it operates from the same database as the main program files, it works out that even though the GERBER files themselves are totally out-of-alignment and because the "GERBER Viewer" and the PCB-design program both reference the same database, the "GERBER Viewer" displays the images as being correctly in alignment even though they're not. It was because you were viewing the GERBER and N/C Drill files using an -- independent -- program that had no connection to the PCB-design software, you were able to see how the files ACTUALLY ARE. We have alerted our program developers to this newly unknown error and we will be issuing a new software release later on this year"!!! And.....this was an $8,000 "industry-standard" PCB-design program!!!

>> So.....go ahead and have your PCB's made. I tried.....

/

 

[chrispbass]

>> OK.....that's fine. Now.....I am -- NOT -- bragging here about myself or even anything remotely close, OK??? But, there is a significant difference between a "GERBER Viewer" (especially one that is also provided by the PCB-design program) and my rather expensive and pricey -- INDEPENDENTLY OPERATED -- "GERBER and N/C Drill Data Analysis & Editing" program. Here is an example:

About 16-years ago while working at a high-end video electronics company, I decided to one day install this program I use here-at-home at my job and I loaded in a few sets of the GERBER files that we had sent out previously to have our PCB's fabricated from. You can't imagine how shocked I was looking at my monitor and seeing how "totally screwed up" that these files were!!! So, I called our PCB-fabrication company and I told them what I was looking at. Their response back to me???.....

"Yeah.....your GERBER files are always screwed up like that when we get them from you!!! It usually takes us a little over half-an-hour to get everything to a point where we can fab your boards for you"!!! -- Weird, huh???

So.....I then asked him, "Why haven't you contacted me to let me know this"???

His reply???....."Our job is to provide you with working PCB's, so we go ahead and spend the time to fix your garbage GERBER files and get you the boards that you're paying for. We figure.....if we told you that your GERBER files are total garbage, then you just might go to another fabricator. So, we -- DON'T TELL YOU -- that your files are garbage and just go ahead and fix them as is needed. You pay for it in our increased setup time to prep your files"!!!

>> OK, now.....all of this brings up two points: 1) The PCB's are being fabricated with "garbage" GERBER and N/C Drill data files and, 2) -- HOW IS IT -- that an expensive and top-line industry-leading PCB-design software program can create -- GARBAGE -- output files and NOT be seen? After all.....this expensive PCB-design software program also has its own "GERBER Viewer" within it. Now what?

So, I call the "Tech Support" group at the PCB-design program headquarters and relate to them not only what I have discovered on my own by using this -- independent -- (important detail here) GERBER & N/C Drill analysis program, but also what I have been told by our PCB-fabrication vendor. Of course, they didn't believe me. But, eventually I was able to convince them that "something" has to be wrong with their program because both our PCB-fabricator and I see the same screwed-up images on our monitors and we are also both using different GERBER & N/C Drill data editing programs!!! So.....they reluctantly told me that they would look into the matter. GEE!!! THANKS!!!

About 10-days later the "Tech Support" guy calls me back and tells me this....."We related your issue to our developers and they told us here that what you are telling us "just can't be". However, we insisted that they look into the matter because both you and your PCB-fabricator are seeing the same incorrect data. After the developers looked at and analyzed our program code, they discovered two separate issues. The first issue they found was that there were some lines of code in the output creation files which prevented all of the files from being aligned with one another at their "0/0" datum point. The second issue that they discovered was in the "GERBER Viewer". Because it operates from the same database as the main program files, it works out that even though the GERBER files themselves are totally out-of-alignment and because the "GERBER Viewer" and the PCB-design program both reference the same database, the "GERBER Viewer" displays the images as being correctly in alignment even though they're not. It was because you were viewing the GERBER and N/C Drill files using an -- independent -- program that had no connection to the PCB-design software, you were able to see how the files ACTUALLY ARE. We have alerted our program developers to this newly unknown error and we will be issuing a new software release later on this year"!!! And.....this was an $8,000 "industry-standard" PCB-design program!!!

>> So.....go ahead and have your PCB's made. I tried.....

/

I'm sure you mean well MA and you're quite the character and obviously very skilled in what you do, but did you actually read the last line of his post?


The guy is putting some serious effort into realising a personal ambition and wether you realise it or not, you're slamming him down. This is diy at the end of the day and his project is very much in the testing/development/doing it for the love phase, so he's probably going to get 5/10 pcbs made costing a few dollars and waiting 2 weeks for the postman. He's hardly going into full scale commercial production and they'll prob come back just fine anyway.

Perfection is always admirable and I'm sure you've saved companies millions over the years, but he's doing it for the love of learning and while a bit of tough love can go a long way in helping people develop, wrongly applied it can signal the beginning of the end. If I turned up at a jam night with my $1million dollar bad ass mother f***** bass with the wrong attitude, do you think that bass would automatically earn me respect as a musician and get me a gig?

Why not reverse engineer the gerbers and do your own layout showing him/us how you would approach that particular pcb design highlighting whats good and what could be done better. Myself, and I'm sure many others would be interested in how a pro such as yourself tackles this kind of thing, and we could all learn something. I'm sure you've got plenty to give in that respect.

 

[ruffrecords]

>> OK.....that's fine. Now.....I am -- NOT -- bragging here about myself or even anything remotely close, OK??? But, there is a significant difference between a "GERBER Viewer" (especially one that is also provided by the PCB-design program) and my rather expensive and pricey -- INDEPENDENTLY OPERATED -- "GERBER and N/C Drill Data Analysis & Editing" program. Here is an example:

About 16-years ago while working at a high-end video electronics company, I decided to one day install this program I use here-at-home at my job and I loaded in a few sets of the GERBER files that we had sent out previously to have our PCB's fabricated from. You can't imagine how shocked I was looking at my monitor and seeing how "totally screwed up" that these files were!!! So, I called our PCB-fabrication company and I told them what I was looking at. Their response back to me???.....

"Yeah.....your GERBER files are always screwed up like that when we get them from you!!! It usually takes us a little over half-an-hour to get everything to a point where we can fab your boards for you"!!! -- Weird, huh???

I think dodgy Gerbers is a much overlooked topic and, as your experience shows, one that is very often swept under the carpet. I know this from my own experience. When I first started laying out my own PCBs about 20 years ago, I chose a PCB layout program called freePCB. It is nothing special and lacks many of the features of modern programs but it is fine for my simple PCBs. When I needed to get some boards made I used a UK company that interfaced with several Chinese manufacturers. They managed the QA of both the source Gerbers and of the Chinese manufacturing process plus they sorted out all the import duties etc. Because of this they saw lots of Gerbers from lots of different PCB layout programs. Long sorry short, they recommended the PCB layout program I was using because "it produces some of the best Gerber files they have seen" So clearly this was an issue 20 or more years ago. Perhaps it explains why so many PCB manufacturers now accept EDA design files because it means they can create the Gerbers themselves. And maybe it also helps explain why EasyEDA was created by a couple of Chinese PCB manufacturers.

Cheers

ian

 

[mmadu]

I think dodgy Gerbers is a much overlooked topic and, as your experience shows, one that is very often swept under the carpet. I know this from my own experience. When I first started laying out my own PCBs about 20 years ago, I chose a PCB layout program called freePCB. It is nothing special and lacks many of the features of modern programs but it is fine for my simple PCBs. When I needed to get some boards made I used a UK company that interfaced with several Chinese manufacturers. They managed the QA of both the source Gerbers and of the Chinese manufacturing process plus they sorted out all the import duties etc. Because of this they saw lots of Gerbers from lots of different PCB layout programs. Long sorry short, they recommended the PCB layout program I was using because "it produces some of the best Gerber files they have seen" So clearly this was an issue 20 or more years ago. Perhaps it explains why so many PCB manufacturers now accept EDA design files because it means they can create the Gerbers themselves. And maybe it also helps explain why EasyEDA was created by a couple of Chinese PCB manufacturers.

Cheers

ian

Yes, I used EasyEDA to draw PCB files and directly sent them to SZJLC for printing in the software. They were very good and never had any problems (they appeared on my friend's high-speed PCIE board a few times, but I only made audio signals, haha!). I released Gerbers just to make it easier for other interested people to manufacture it, that's all