SIXTYNINER
Well-known member
.... After all, Diy is not also "try & error" ?
Open source project: Customized mixing console
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.... After all, Diy is not also "try & error" ?
MidnightArrakis
Well-known member
>> OK.....that's fine. Now.....I am -- NOT -- bragging here about myself or even anything remotely close, OK??? But, there is a significant difference between a "GERBER Viewer" (especially one that is also provided by the PCB-design program) and my rather expensive and pricey -- INDEPENDENTLY OPERATED -- "GERBER and N/C Drill Data Analysis & Editing" program. Here is an example:
About 16-years ago while working at a high-end video electronics company, I decided to one day install this program I use here-at-home at my job and I loaded in a few sets of the GERBER files that we had sent out previously to have our PCB's fabricated from. You can't imagine how shocked I was looking at my monitor and seeing how "totally screwed up" that these files were!!! So, I called our PCB-fabrication company and I told them what I was looking at. Their response back to me???.....
"Yeah.....your GERBER files are always screwed up like that when we get them from you!!! It usually takes us a little over half-an-hour to get everything to a point where we can fab your boards for you"!!! -- Weird, huh???
So.....I then asked him, "Why haven't you contacted me to let me know this"???
His reply???....."Our job is to provide you with working PCB's, so we go ahead and spend the time to fix your garbage GERBER files and get you the boards that you're paying for. We figure.....if we told you that your GERBER files are total garbage, then you just might go to another fabricator. So, we -- DON'T TELL YOU -- that your files are garbage and just go ahead and fix them as is needed. You pay for it in our increased setup time to prep your files"!!!
>> OK, now.....all of this brings up two points: 1) The PCB's are being fabricated with "garbage" GERBER and N/C Drill data files and, 2) -- HOW IS IT -- that an expensive and top-line industry-leading PCB-design software program can create -- GARBAGE -- output files and NOT be seen? After all.....this expensive PCB-design software program also has its own "GERBER Viewer" within it. Now what?
So, I call the "Tech Support" group at the PCB-design program headquarters and relate to them not only what I have discovered on my own by using this -- independent -- (important detail here) GERBER & N/C Drill analysis program, but also what I have been told by our PCB-fabrication vendor. Of course, they didn't believe me. But, eventually I was able to convince them that "something" has to be wrong with their program because both our PCB-fabricator and I see the same screwed-up images on our monitors and we are also both using different GERBER & N/C Drill data editing programs!!! So.....they reluctantly told me that they would look into the matter. GEE!!! THANKS!!!
About 10-days later the "Tech Support" guy calls me back and tells me this....."We related your issue to our developers and they told us here that what you are telling us "just can't be". However, we insisted that they look into the matter because both you and your PCB-fabricator are seeing the same incorrect data. After the developers looked at and analyzed our program code, they discovered two separate issues. The first issue they found was that there were some lines of code in the output creation files which prevented all of the files from being aligned with one another at their "0/0" datum point. The second issue that they discovered was in the "GERBER Viewer". Because it operates from the same database as the main program files, it works out that even though the GERBER files themselves are totally out-of-alignment and because the "GERBER Viewer" and the PCB-design program both reference the same database, the "GERBER Viewer" displays the images as being correctly in alignment even though they're not. It was because you were viewing the GERBER and N/C Drill files using an -- independent -- program that had no connection to the PCB-design software, you were able to see how the files ACTUALLY ARE. We have alerted our program developers to this newly unknown error and we will be issuing a new software release later on this year"!!! And.....this was an $8,000 "industry-standard" PCB-design program!!!
>> So.....go ahead and have your PCB's made. I tried.....
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chrispbass
Well-known member
I'm sure you mean well MA and you're quite the character and obviously very skilled in what you do, but did you actually read the last line of his post?
The guy is putting some serious effort into realising a personal ambition and wether you realise it or not, you're slamming him down. This is diy at the end of the day and his project is very much in the testing/development/doing it for the love phase, so he's probably going to get 5/10 pcbs made costing a few dollars and waiting 2 weeks for the postman. He's hardly going into full scale commercial production and they'll prob come back just fine anyway.
Perfection is always admirable and I'm sure you've saved companies millions over the years, but he's doing it for the love of learning and while a bit of tough love can go a long way in helping people develop, wrongly applied it can signal the beginning of the end. If I turned up at a jam night with my $1million dollar bad *** mother f***** bass with the wrong attitude, do you think that bass would automatically earn me respect as a musician and get me a gig?
Why not reverse engineer the gerbers and do your own layout showing him/us how you would approach that particular pcb design highlighting whats good and what could be done better. Myself, and I'm sure many others would be interested in how a pro such as yourself tackles this kind of thing, and we could all learn something. I'm sure you've got plenty to give in that respect.
ruffrecords
Well-known member
I think dodgy Gerbers is a much overlooked topic and, as your experience shows, one that is very often swept under the carpet. I know this from my own experience. When I first started laying out my own PCBs about 20 years ago, I chose a PCB layout program called freePCB. It is nothing special and lacks many of the features of modern programs but it is fine for my simple PCBs. When I needed to get some boards made I used a UK company that interfaced with several Chinese manufacturers. They managed the QA of both the source Gerbers and of the Chinese manufacturing process plus they sorted out all the import duties etc. Because of this they saw lots of Gerbers from lots of different PCB layout programs. Long sorry short, they recommended the PCB layout program I was using because "it produces some of the best Gerber files they have seen" So clearly this was an issue 20 or more years ago. Perhaps it explains why so many PCB manufacturers now accept EDA design files because it means they can create the Gerbers themselves. And maybe it also helps explain why EasyEDA was created by a couple of Chinese PCB manufacturers.
Cheers
ian
Yes, I used EasyEDA to draw PCB files and directly sent them to SZJLC for printing in the software. They were very good and never had any problems (they appeared on my friend's high-speed PCIE board a few times, but I only made audio signals, haha!). I released Gerbers just to make it easier for other interested people to manufacture it, that's all
MidnightArrakis
Well-known member
My main PCB-design program is the CADENCE/OrCAD "PCB Editor" program and it will easily import the ALTIUM Designer schematic and PCB-layout design files. Should you want to export a set of ALTIUM Designer project files, I will import them into my CADENCE/OrCAD program and take a look at them for you. FAIR???.....
While I also have "Front Panel Designer", my main 3D CAD-modeling program is SolidWorks Premium. So.....if you would want to send me your Front Panel Designer mechanical files, I can export a -- STEP -- file from it and then import that file into my SolidWorks Premium program to more thoroughly check things over with and even create a set of "Mechanical Detail Fabrication Drawings" for, as shown below. Your call!!!
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