original Neve BA283 and B183 - Recap advice

[Whoops]

Hi,
I'm doing a recap job on some original Neve BA183 and BA283 cards.
I'm replacing all the old Electrolytic caps for new/modern ones.

I don't know if there's much people experienced with Neve service or repair around here,
but I would like to ask you if you think I should replace also the Tantalum caps on these board for new Tantalum caps?

Tantalum caps are know to fail short, although I never heard that the tantalum caps in the Neve cards can be problematic, at least it's not a common know fault.
The same I can't say for some other pieces of equipment where the tantalum caps are know to fail, I had a job were I had to replace shorted tantalum caps on an units PSU.

What are your opinions? should I leave the original Tantalum caps or replace them with new for the sake of security.

Do tantalums degrade over time?

Thank you so much

 

[user 53957]

Its the bassy spitty that it is. since they are used as low voltage coupling caps, they probably ok to leave in.

 

[Khron]

Since new electrolytics cost next to nothing, i'd replace those tantalums just for peace of mind, so as not need to do it later. But that's just me...

 

[ruffrecords]

Original boards of this type were probably last made in the 70s which means yours are about 40 years old. At the time they were designed they used the components that were readily available, never thinking people would still be using them four decades later. Tantalums offered the best capacitance per unit volume of the day, especially for low voltage use. As far as I know there was no other reason for choosing them so I would replace them with modern electrolytics.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Whoops]

Thank you all for your comments and help.
Just would like to clear some confusion, I will not replace Tantalum for modern Electrolytics.

I will replace the old Electrolytics on the boards for new modern Electrolytics.

But if I replace the 4x Tantalum caps I would not change the Dialetic type, I will change them for new/modern Tantalums.

The reasons are, the cards are not mine, and some people says the tantalums in these cards are part of the "Sound" and if you change the tantalums for lytics the amps will not sound the same. The owner of the cards knows theses thoughts, specially because they were publicly expressed by Geoff Tanner.
I'm not questioning if tantalums are part of the sound or not in these Neve cards, neither I will make comparisons.

I'm just asking if in the re-cap job I should also recap the tantalums for new tantalums or leave the originals alone?

Thank you so much

 

[ruffrecords]

Who is to say if new tantalums have the same sound as the old ones?

Cheers

IAn

 

[Whoops]

Who is to say if new tantalums have the same sound as the old ones?

Cheers

IAn

I know what you mean Ian, but it's not my words.

People that atribute a sonic impact of the tantalum capacitors in these Neve boards, atribute it to the dielectric type and not to a specific brand or model.

 

[Khron]

Now I'm starting to wonder if the owner could even be able to tell the difference in dielectrics, especially with days in between...

Edit - Could always "blame" it on the "rest" of the recap

 

[Matt Syson]

While there may be 'differences' there can never be true 'authenticity' as 1970 has been and gone. Literally the whole world has changed. Components made at that time will have degraded even if kept in a temperature controlled 'ideal' environment.
I had 4 Neve 1073 (or whichever they were) to repair a few years back. They were all 'buggered' in different ways due to age and temperature and I only had them to fix because one had stopped working altogether. Resistors and capacitors were bought and fitted largely depending on the best price the buying department could get them for at the time and only paid 'premium' for resistors used in gain setting or particularly noise susceptible positions.
Checking the leakage and 'reforming time' of electrolytics is very boring. Making a jig to test 100uF electrolytics, 10 of each from 9 brands of so called 'low leakage' caps takes time.
Nowadays you can probably get the graphs for this information from the internet.
It all boils down to the best, AT WHICH PARAMETERS as it all needs to be taken in context.
I can appreciate a brilliant jazz musicians performance but I hate jazz generally.

 

[Whoops]

Are tamtalum caps known to degrade a lot over time?
Or that is just related to Electrolytic caps?

 

[Winston OBoogie]

I never personally noticed a degradation in the original tantalums in Neve's. You do find out-and-out failure from time to time so, I found that the Panasonic tants perform the same if you do need to change one.
Change them all for new Panasonics if you're wary of any potential future failure.

But that the tants in Neve's have an impact on the sound isn't myth.

I've done similar experiments several times with changing them out for modern types.

One example: 2 channels in an 8068 desk, no tants, but all electrolytic changed. Randomly inserted by me into the desk amongst the other channel amps. Which also had all electrolytics changed for new. The owner (and others present) could instantly tell which ones were which.
He/they/me hated them compared to the tant-ed channels. Less distortion, more transparent, cleaner? Yes. Measurable too.

Easy experiment to try yourself, no need to take anyone's word on it.
Caveat Emptor/Venditor as the case may be.

 

[Whoops]

Thank you so much.
I trust Geoff Tanner and trust you, that's good enough for me.

I don't trust gearslutz random threads but trust some selection of known experienced people

 

[Winston OBoogie]

I trust Rupert Neve.
I called him at home in Arizona one time to discuss a project/job I was asked to do involving strapping 2 X BBC 8066 16 channel desks together.

Within that chat we talked about re-capping etc. His opinion was - no need for unnecessary work. Don't change out the tants. unless you find a particular problem.

That was for two complete 16 channel desks. A few cards is a different matter and, I'd maybe just put new Panasonic tantalums in so I slept better at night but, up to you

Cheers dude.

 

[Whoops]

Thank you mate, yes I’m just doing it on 6 cards, it’s 4 Tant caps per card, so easy to do.

Thanks

 

[industrialarts]

You can see the can of worms I opened here with another question about caps. Electrolytic vs Tantalum for Supply ByPass?

So yes, I have had quite a bit of experience with replacing caps in Neves (as well as many other consoles). I recommend you use Panasonic or Wurth, both are excellent quality and available from Mouser and DigiKey. I have been using the Wurths recently because they are excellent quality and just as important, they look cool. IMHO

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in these discussions so far is cap life, I would choose no less than 2000 hours and no more than 5000 hours; this factor is influenced by temperature so erring on the high side (if these modules are going to be in an enclosure where ventilation isn't great) will extend the MTF (mean time to failure).

I would replace the tantalums for sure, in my experience they are indeed prone to failure. Either replace with electrolytics or new tantalums (if the owner insists) you can see the my previous post for some other members suggestions. Ian's info about cap size vs space in older gear is right on, the choices back then were limited by space constraints - and cost as well. Plus, I have gone the route of not replacing working tantalum caps in gear that I have recapped only to have the remaining ones fail not far down the road.

I will not enter into the argument about the sound of caps, but your job is to make sure the owner of the gear is happy with the results so I would acquiesce to his wishes if he has specific component requirements. The only thing I know for certain is that working caps sound better than non working caps

 

[Whoops]

Hi industrialarts,
thank you so much for your reply.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in these discussions so far is cap life, I would choose no less than 2000 hours and no more than 5000 hours;

May I ask you whats the reason for not using caps rated at over 5000 hours cap life?

Thanks

 

[industrialarts]

No special reason - for me it just adds to the cost, which may not be that much more, FWIW. I think for most of the mass manufactured gear the cap life is rated 1000-2000 hours. 5000 hours would be it running 10-12 per day for about 10 years, but that's just some cocktail napkin math.

So, for me, 5000 is fine.