Tantalum decoupling caps

[RoadrunnerOZ]

It's meaningless subjective nonsense even if the company's audio products are nice.

Good design makes audio gear sound good using either carbon or metal film resistors without resorting to hype around the “sound” of resistors and needing to use boutique components of dubious audio value. Pultec, AMS, Neve, MCI, Studer……..etc. Built long before these devices were available - probably wouldn’t sound any different if you swapped out all the resistors for tantrums - or maybe sound worse?

 

[Newmarket]

ng before these devices were available - probably wouldn’t sound any different if you swapped out all the resistors for tantrums - or maybe sound worse?

"tantrums" typo' or wordplay

 

[JohnRoberts]

yes, those modern MLCC capacitors are very much accident-prone in much the same way as tants - in some cases even worse

A handful of years ago I optimistically decided to replace all production 10uF electrolytics in power decoupling duties with MLCC version - just to ensure long life in the commercial Gyraf's. Yes, a 10uF/35V ceramic capacitor is commonly available today, and I always expect ceramics to last forever.

I managed to use them for a year and a half, then they started to come back to haunt me - first I thought I'd been unlucky or perhaps applied too much mechanical stress to them. But no: One after another more than a third of them short out and cause all sorts of problems.

Internally they're codenamed "those yellow peskies" - and ALL are always to be replaced on sight

It was simply a stupid move deciding to replace the electrolytics - a case of counterproductive hyperoptimisazion. Looking back, I realize - to add insult to injury - that I have not ever had to replace one of those 10uF electrolytics.. :sigh:


/Jakob E.

Ah the crucible of production manufacturing.... weak components reveal themselves over time. I experienced many examples of this while working at Peavey for 15 years.
===
I am just now coming up on three years since I shut down my drum tuner company and to date I have exactly zero claims, against my 3 year warranty. Now I can take down my test bench (and the shipping bench), I kept operational JIC.

I attribute some of this to luck, and maybe more than a little to over-engineering.

JR

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

"tantrums" typo' or wordplay

Typo from spellcheck but left it as it seemed appropriate

 

[CJ]

What about MLCC in stomp boxes?
OK, right? I hope ,

JR I haven't had on of those folded pc board Peavey amps in the shop for many years now.

 

[Newmarket]

What about MLCC in stomp boxes?
OK, right? I hope ,

JR I haven't had on of those folded pc board Peavey amps in the shop for many years now.

I've not had the problem myself. But I'm aware that it's far more likely to occur with a larger PCB where to the cap' is some distance from a PCB support etc so more subject to flexing. Vibration makes it worse.
So I instinctively take that into account and place mechanical support as I judge appropriate.
Pedals are relatively small and I wouldn't expect such problems in general.

 

[jensenmann]

Tantalum mines are a pretty brutal place to work so I am doing somebody a favor if I don't use them , in my mind at least, as the cell phone market will keep people digging in the dirt for eons,

Remember that shortage that created the 2 year lead times?

Not exactly. In opposite to most other people I´ve been in a tantalum mine before in Ruanda. Even back then in the early 2000s tantalum was so important to 1st world countries, that mining companies covered the local mines with their support. E.g. they had water pumps installed to protect the mines (and workers) from rain. Geologists frequently inspected the mines, of course for profit, but also for safety reasons. There was electricity through the mining generator sets, so they had light, TV and other privileges through electricity. Tantalum brought so much money into the worker´s communities, that they could afford doctors. That was a very big thing over there. Not everything was bad. The workers told me that they felt very privileged being able to work in a mine. They had a future, an income, and compared to other communities without mines a type of prosperity.

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

I've not had the problem myself. But I'm aware that it's far more likely to occur with a larger PCB where to the cap' is some distance from a PCB support etc so more subject to flexing. Vibration makes it worse.
So I instinctively take that into account and place mechanical support as I judge appropriate.
Pedals are relatively small and I wouldn't expect such problems in general.

I wonder how tube guitar amps with smd MLCC’s on PCB’s with the head on a speaker would go?

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

Not exactly. In opposite to most other people I´ve been in a tantalum mine before in Ruanda. Even back then in the early 2000s tantalum was so important to 1st world countries, that mining companies covered the local mines with their support. E.g. they had water pumps installed to protect the mines (and workers) from rain. Geologists frequently inspected the mines, of course for profit, but also for safety reasons. There was electricity through the mining generator sets, so they had light, TV and other privileges through electricity. Tantalum brought so much money into the worker´s communities, that they could afford doctors. That was a very big thing over there. Not everything was bad. The workers told me that they felt very privileged being able to work in a mine. They had a future, an income, and compared to other communities without mines a type of prosperity.

Because tantalum is not a hand-held currency like gold or diamonds there seems to be less of the “slave labour” aspect of mining and the brutal security measures that also keep the eyes of the world off the working conditions. Hand mining for certain minerals is the only way we get them - the bulk excavation and processing is not cost effective for an already expensive product as tantalum seems to be present in ares of very hard rock in small quantities.
Also sourcing from conflict areas is also managed for some countries by agreements to OECD guidelines in terms of the companies sourcing the materials such as tin, tantalum, tungsten and gold.
The 3rd Edition of the OECD Due Diligence Guidance was published in April 2016. This booklet contains the OECD Council Recommendation, the text of the Guidance, the 3Ts Supplement and the Gold Supplement. The updated version clarifies that the Guidance provides a framework for detailed due diligence as a basis for responsible supply chain management of minerals, including tin, tantalum, tungsten and gold, as well as all other mineral resources. In addition to the 37 OECD Members, 9 non-Members, namely Argentina, Brazil, Costa Rica, Croatia, Kazakhstan, Morocco, Peru, Romania and Ukraine, adhered to the Council Recommendation.
Edit: OECD members, click on countries

https://www.oecd.org/about/members-and-partners/

We’ve been using tungsten for more than a century - maybe we should not use light bulbs anymore…….

 

[Disco Volante]

Tungsten light bulbs are NLA here in DK, I believe they were prohibited EU-wide. Still have a few sitting in a box somewhere...

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

Tungsten light bulbs are NLA here in DK, I believe they were prohibited EU-wide. Still have a few sitting in a box somewhere...

Bet there are still plenty in people’s ceilings and older cars. I think the problem with blanket bans is they don’t necessarily take into account the responsibly sourced material from countries who really need the revenue and the employment it offers. Unfortunately there is no power to stop irresponsible governments, or factions that those governments turn a blind eye to, from exploiting their own. All we can offer is embargoes.

 

[Brian Roth]

In the past few months, the USA enacted a ban on non-LED bulbs. The locally owned Ace Hardware store sold all their inventory at a closeout price. I asked one of the guys there....he said they had to dump the inventory to avoid getting thousands of dollar fines per each bulb sold/

Not quite correct....exceptions were made for specialty bulbs such as the one inside my electric oven. But, the stores did a CYA and no longer stock any replacement, so I have to use a flashlight to check the state of a holiday pumpkin pie.

Bri

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

In the past few months, the USA enacted a ban on non-LED bulbs. The locally owned Ace Hardware store sold all their inventory at a closeout price. I asked one of the guys there....he said they had to dump the inventory to avoid getting thousands of dollar fines per each bulb sold/

Not quite correct....exceptions were made for specialty bulbs such as the one inside my electric oven. But, the stores did a CYA and no longer stock any replacement, so I have to use a flashlight to check the state of a holiday pumpkin pie.

Bri

How’s that ban going to work with LED’s in ovens - I don’t know that they’d handle the heat??

 

[Brian Roth]

There are exceptions for "special purposes" but many retailers just throw up their hands and no longer stock any incandescents so they are not fined $$$$ if they accidentally sell one.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tylerr...next-week-heres-what-to-know/?sh=60a18fca5831
FWIW....I have several ceiling fixtures here at Camp Chaos <g> that have a closed glass cover. Even with name-brand (Sylvania, etc) LED bulbs they die as quickly as the old incandescents. Used to get a 4-pack of the old bulbs for a dollar. The new bulbs cost a few bucks per bulb. So I am paying 8x or more per replacement.

Bri

 

[gyraf]

..and big old theater- and studio lights are getting very cheap lately..

 

[Newmarket]

How’s that ban going to work with LED’s in ovens - I don’t know that they’d handle the heat??

It doesn't. Similar here in UK. Exceptions apply.
I can just go to TLC and buy a replacement.
The enclosed lights mentioned are a problem area. As you point out LEDs don't do well when it gets hot.

 

[Newmarket]

I wonder how tube guitar amps with smd MLCC’s on PCB’s with the head on a speaker would go?

Dependent on the mechanical design and pcb detail really.
It's not the ideal place for any electronics tbh - think of the valves (tubes) !
Compliant feet / pads are a good idea on the head.
And routine checking of fixings etc.

 

[Cqwet Dbdfte]

PCB's and electronics is stoves ("cookers") is a bad idea, generally speaking. A very unfriendly high energy environment, not good for low temp, low voltage devices.
Oven bulbs could be relabeled as something else, "Auxiliary oven heaters" maybe, to escape the stupid regulations? Fight stupidity with stupidity.
As heat rises, all stove electronics, if any, could be located close to the floor, where LED oven light could be placed and fiber piped into the hot section.
Stove heat may be a bonus in some climates, but here in the subtropics, not so much. A chimney would be nice, to "stack" out excess heat, just like an electric dryer or a bathroom vent.
What are discussing again, Tantalium caps? Get rid of those too. Give Niobium and X5R a chance

 

[CJ]

Thermal runaway of LED's is causing car fires,

Be sure to add fuse if upgrading your car

Correction: I mean load resistor

 

[Newmarket]

PCB's and electronics is stoves ("cookers") is a bad idea, generally speaking. A very unfriendly high energy environment, not good for low temp, low voltage devices.
Oven bulbs could be relabeled as something else, "Auxiliary oven heaters" maybe, to escape the stupid regulations? Fight stupidity with stupidity.
As heat rises, all stove electronics, if any, could be located close to the floor, where LED oven light could be placed and fiber piped into the hot section.
Stove heat may be a bonus in some climates, but here in the subtropics, not so much. A chimney would be nice, to "stack" out excess heat, just like an electric dryer or a bathroom vent.
What are discussing again, Tantalium caps? Get rid of those too. Give Niobium and X5R a chance

They don't need to be relabeled to escaped regulation. They are exempt.