Panning an AB recording

[tomas.borgstrom]

I'm currently mixing a session where I've recorded the piano AB centered in the image. It sounds lovely but in the mix I don't want it in the middle and I don't want it mono either. The easiest way to achieve this is to either pan one side towards the other or lower the volume.

I wonder if anyone has experience with a more sophisticated method trying to mimic how it would sound if you were listening to an instrument located on one side of your head. In that case you will not only have to lower the volume but also add eq and a very short delay (and perhaps even ambience).

A friend of mine own the Neumann KU100 head which is amazing at doing exactly this. When you listen to the recording you can literally imagine the musician and instrument in a very specific, natural and three dimensional spot. It's so defined that it's a problem cutting between takes if the musician has moved slightly.

 

[kags]

If you’re mixing in the box, there are many plugins that steer stereo images. Just a few idea:
Waves Shuffler or S1
Dear VRPro
Nugen Stereoizer or Stereoplacer (different types of processing)

Probably lots more, but these are ones I have experience with…

Best of luck!

 

[Whoops]

What do you mean by "AB centered in the image"?

Does it means you used a "Spaced Stereo pair"?

 

[k brown]

Generally, panning-in one channel or the other to reposition the instrument in the stereo field is more effective than reducing the level of one channel.

It's what most classical engineers do to adjust the position of concerto, or vocal soloists when mic'd with two mics.

 

[Tubetec]

Below is an Amek BC ,the stereo inputs have an image control as well as pan/bal , it allows you dial in as much or as little stereo spread as you want and flip L/R. Maybe theres a VST with similar functionality .

 

[Barry Hufker]

I don't know if this will help but I found it interesting: Panpot, by Goodhertz

 

[Tubetec]

That looks like it should work Barry ,

Voxengo PH-979 phase alignment tool is another useful one .
I was able to make the Sony PS3 eye 4 microphone array work with windows ,
it shows up as 4 audio channels with a 16khz sample rate and 16 bit resolution ,
The PH-979 allows you process the signal in such a way your creating a beamforming array from the four electret elements , once you have the 4 channels recorded in the daw you can freely play with the apparent mic positioning , zooming in or out on the sound source or adding a stereo width that appears to go beyond the speakers .Its a lot of fun to play around with as an ambient drum mic ,even though the bandwidth is low

I did try the newer PS4 camera which also has the array and 48khz 24 bit conversion , but the third party drivers didnt work for me ,
I'll definately be having another go at it ,
In case anyone wants to try it for themselves ,
https://github.com/Hackinside/PS4-CAMERA-DRIVERS

 

[zamproject]

Pan and balance achieve two different things.

In stereo, narrowing the pan introduce LR crosstalk, extreme setting being mono sum and LR flip
To me stereo spread is just a linked pan.
With balance you don't change the stereo field, it's an LR crossfader, and only at extreme setting you get mono fully paned but from single channel, no mono sum.

Use one or both to what fit your ears.

My console stereo channels have both, stereo spread (that is active and can go from mono sum to out of phase crosstalk) and a balance.

I often use both, and I'm sure any DAW can do it, integrated or via plug-in

 

[k brown]

Pan and balance achieve two different things.

In stereo, narrowing the pan introduce LR crosstalk, extreme setting being mono sum and LR flip
To me stereo spread is just a linked pan.
With balance you don't change the stereo field, it's an LR crossfader, and only at extreme setting you get mono fully paned but from single channel, no mono sum.

Use one or both to what fit your ears.

My console stereo channels have both, stereo spread (that is active and can go from mono sum to out of phase crosstalk) and a balance.

I often use both, and I'm sure any DAW can do it, integrated or via plug-in

Mmm, not quite. One doesn't pan a stereo input, only balance (or narrowing/widening); the stereo inputs of the mixer shown in post #5 are an exeption, since they can be gradually narrowed to mono with the LR/RL controls; the Pan knobs would be more correctly labeled Balance, sine true panning is only taking place with the LR/RL controls at dead center; the rest of the time the knob is controlling stereo balance. On most mixers, that don't have this control, only mono channels can be panned.

My suggestion to OP was to send the two AB signals to their own mono inputs (not a stereo input), and pan-in only one of them; the other would be panned hard L or R. For example If it is desired to 'float' the image of the piano a bit to the left, the L signal of the AB pair is panned fully L, and the R signal is panned slightly less than fully R. No fancy software processing is required.

 

[zamproject]

One doesn't pan a stereo input

Yes I should have said dual pan ! IIRC I see this on console ? EMT ?
Protool use dual pan on stereo channel (at least last time I use it) not a balance.

Still dual pan and balance don't do the same thing, a balance don't introduce LR cross talk from the two sources

Both are valid, realy depend of the expected result.

I know how Studer handle this in various consoles but don't know for the AMEK showed by @Tubetec , I'll be interested to see the wiring of the section, to me. -IMAGE- is a linked dual pan ? quad pot with 2x log and 2x revlog ? Now there is a switch PAN/BAL and a PAN pot that is probably a balance, dual pot log/revlog? confusing.

 

[Tubetec]

I havent the full service manual for the BC3 ,
but heres a link with the pot and switch info ,
https://www.audiomaintenance.com/pdf/bc318.pdf
Matt Syson might know more about the circuit used .

 

[tomas.borgstrom]

What do you mean by "AB centered in the image"?

Does it means you used a "Spaced Stereo pair"?

Spaced omni pair with roughly the same volume.

Yes I should have said dual pan ! IIRC I see this on console ? EMT ?
Protool use dual pan on stereo channel (at least last time I use it) not a balance.

Still dual pan and balance don't do the same thing, a balance don't introduce LR cross talk from the two sources

Both are valid, realy depend of the expected result.

You can do either very easy in any DAW. It doesn't give me the results I'm after.

I don't know if this will help but I found it interesting: Panpot, by Goodhertz

This is exactly what I'm thinking about. Using delays and eq. It would be interesting to measure delays and eq curves corresponding different positions of a head. If I knew how I would make a plugin.

Even though I can achieve the same with the plugins I have, Goodhertz panpot seems like a handy tool. I'll download the trail.

 

[Tubetec]

Maybe you could treat both A and B as mono signals with stereoiser plugins then add back the effected signals panned to the opposite output ,
In other words channel A + stereoised signal from channel B , channel B +stereoised channel A.

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

One of my clients who is a pianist/vocalist for whom I have mixed and mastered more than 70 tracks uses a grand piano in a studio with a large live space, the other instruments are played by other artists. The tracks are then sent to me for mixing. 2 mic recordings for the piano.
I have never panned the piano across the whole mix unless it’s solo piano - if you visualise an ensemble or band on stage that the track originated (or could have originated) from, it governs where the piano is placed in the mix. If centre stage has the pianist/vocalist facing audience or angled/side on then top strings are to the left and bottom to the right Vox centred - narrow pan field for piano to leave space for other instruments.
If piano is off to one side I use a slightly wider pan field but keeping both low/high mics to the left or right of centre. A piano is not as wide as a stage!
I find it best to complement the piano on one side with another instrument on the opposite side to retain balance in the tonal spread across the mix.
I have been given stereo piano tracks for other projects and in this case I used a stereo combined panner which allows narrowing of the pan field as well as moving pan centre with the width held constant to either side of the mix pan field. This combined panner comes as standard in Cubase Pro. The left and right pan positions are linked and retain their pan distance as you move the pan block around the mix pan field. You can achieve the same by adjusting two mono track pans. The reverb for these mics can be given a position outside of the pan field for the piano so as not to cloud the natural body resonance of the piano present in the mic recordings and give the impression of wall reflections. .
(The same can also be applied to drums - leaves room for other instruments either side of the drum riser for a visualised stage mix - but in a most instances drums are given the full width of the sound field, seems to give a sense of movement even if not true to the image.)
In the early days of stereo mixing when there weren’t many tracks on tape for example, drums might be mono left, bass mono right, guitar mono centre/side etc. Vox centre.

 

[tinn]

AB recording seems to be a spaced pair.
This should best played stereo full L/R and is not intended to become a mono signal.
You have time delays between the two mics.
In a piano situation, the mics may sound that different, that mono can work and some comb
filtering (resulting from time delay with AB/spaced pair) is not as audible.
Try to switch it to mono and check if some frequencies are now sticking out.
reduce these frequencies in one channel or both channels, better if you have an MS-EQ in the mid cnnel.
then widen up the stereo image from mono to some "stereo" and pan it to the side you like.

 

[TheGedi]

You might like to take a look at Austrian Audio software, normally meant to be used with their mics, however, as a plugin on a stereo pair they may work and are available open source - Software - Austrian.Audio

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

The distance to spacing ratio and the distance apart of the mics governs how much comb filtering and phasing will occur as you change apparent width by panning narrower than full width - there can be a “stretched” image of the piano which sounds unnatural with full width panning or a “compressed” image by a reduced pan range depending on the mic setup.
You need to adjust the pan separation to achieve a natural width impression as well as the correct apparent direct to reflected sound balance. This all depends on how the recording mic setup was done. A dual stereo panner allows the control of pan width to achieve this, starting by equal pan shift from centre for both mics and then the apparent position in the mix pan field can be adjusted. If the miking was done well you should be able to manipulate the stereo image enough to get the positioning and width you want without large phase errors causing frequency loss or boost. Obviously if you need full pan width to achieve the best sound and apparent width you will end up with the piano in image centre. If you don’t have a combined stereo panner or panner plugin, you can always route the two mic tracks to a stereo group/aux channel and use that to position the panned mics in the mix. You can add an M/S plugin to that and muck around with it as well.