Parallel connecting of big capacitors with smaller capacitors for optimising the sound??

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rock soderstrom

Tour de France
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I think most people have already seen this or have done it themselves. You connect a smaller, high-quality capacitor in parallel with a larger, usually electrolytic capacitor to hopefully improve the sound characteristics.

You can see this in many places, so to narrow down this discussion and to make it more concrete, I would like to discuss it using the example of capacitor in parallel to a tube cathode resistor . Let's assume a V1 position in a head amp or microphone preamp, no overall negative feedback. Something like this for instance:
m49c_schematic.jpg

What do you think, does it make sense at this point to complement a bigger capacitor (like c9) with a smaller film capacitor (let's say a MKP 0.22uF)?

What do you expect from this? Is there a big difference?

Or is it better to just to use one single good quality electrolytic capacitor and do it without the second capacitor?

Would a version without a capacitor be the best option, according to the theorem that the best capacitor is no capacitor? (Diodes instead of a cathode resistor?)

What do you think?
 
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What do you seek to accomplish?

Decoupling power supplies is a complex task and needs to take into account all the subtleties not only of the schematic but of the actual build (like trace inductance). It's easy to make things worse by creating resonance in the impedance response with a multicap system. There are good examples of measurements availible online.

The stability of the circuit may even depend on the electrolytics characteristics, that's why I wouldn't use low-ESR types except in places where they are specifically mandated. Use standard "high" ESR ones for decoupling audio circuits, and you're good.

I had my entire console fit with parallel film caps at every signal path electrolytic. And synths. And outboard gear. But it sounded better without them. Again, resonances may occur and proper electrolytics are good enough for audio. Use audio grade ones, like the Nichicon Muse series in the signal path, and you're good.

For C5 Neumann uses a really cheap "bad" electrolytic in the U87, nothing paralleled. In clones I've substituted it for a "good" film cap - and it sounded worse. I would leave Neumann designs alone, they know what they are doing.
 
I did some bench work investigating this concept back in the 70s (not on vacuum tube circuits). I was chasing down some unwanted phase shift at 20kHz caused by an electrolytic capacitor's ESL (internal inductance). In my testing I found that the parallel high quality capacitor needed to be 10% or more than the large capacitor's value to measure like a single larger high quality capacitor.

Caveat Lector, electrolytic capacitors have improved quite a bit since my bench work several decades ago. I would suggest defining exactly what you trying to improve and then make objective measurements.

JR
 
What do you seek to accomplish?
Im rethinking and reviewing my own habits from time to time. I also like to do this on the basis of a current hands-on project.

I thought it would be a good time to bring this up and see what other members think on the subject.

My own experiences are very mixed and inconsistent. The issue also touches the controversial topic of "capacitor sound" which is not only highly subjective but also difficult to measure.

I believe that the component (here capacitors) quality can play a role in terms of sound, but the circuit environment also plays an important role here.

I once compared numerous different capacitors of all qualities and prices with a dedicated apparatus and the results were disillusioning.

I wanted to believe in it, but the differences were negligible in a double-blind situation and, above all, not reproducible. In essence, it didn't matter whether it was an old used electrolytic capacitor from a cheap Italian organ or a super expensive "high end" MKP cap.

So it doesn't matter which capacitor you use?

Not quite. As I said, the whole thing must also be seen in context. In this case it was an coupling cap in a opamp headphone amplifier with a lot of negative feedback. However, as we know, there are also other circuit situations.

That's why I cited the example above. In very simple tube circuits without negative feedback, I could hear differences in the capacitors with the same technical data. It is still subtle but often audible.

I found the differences to be greatest in the cathode branch of tubes. Electrolytic capacitors are often used at this point, so it seems obvious to "pimp" them with a parallel film capacitor.

Here the situation was again inconsistent, sometimes I found it "better", sometimes not. I don't have the equipment (or the knowledge) to prove this metrologically, but apparently the issue is more complex than it appears at first glance.

The two capacitors seem to interact with each other, in my opinion there is no guarantee that the combination of electrolytic capacitor + film capacitor is necessarily better than a good electrolytic capacitor alone.

Again, this is quite subtle and also very subjective. At the moment, I'm just trying it out and letting my ears decide. When in doubt, I prefer to leave out the parallel film cap. I'll spare you my personal listening impressions and my pathetic attempts to describe them in a language that is still foreign to me. 😅
Decoupling power supplies is a complex task and needs to take into account all the subtleties not only of the schematic but of the actual build (like trace inductance). It's easy to make things worse by creating resonance in the impedance response with a multicap system. There are good examples of measurements availible online.
Do you have a link? This is a similar situation and maybe these resonances are the interactions of the two caps I hear?
Use audio grade ones, like the Nichicon Muse series in the signal path, and you're good.
That's right, I also like to use Nichicons or other well-known brands. However, I often need axial caps and the available selection is now really limited. Nichicon has unfortunately also EOL´ed some axial types...
For C5 Neumann uses a really cheap "bad" electrolytic in the U87, nothing paralleled. In clones I've substituted it for a "good" film cap - and it sounded worse. I would leave Neumann designs alone, they know what they are doing.
The Neumann circuit is just an example but I agree.
I did some bench work investigating this concept back in the 70s (not on vacuum tube circuits). I was chasing down some unwanted phase shift at 20kHz caused by an electrolytic capacitor's ESL (internal inductance). In my testing I found that the parallel high quality capacitor needed to be 10% or more than the large capacitor's value to measure like a single larger high quality capacitor.
Interesting, I also follow the min. 10% rule of thumb. Phase shift is unknown territory for me in detail, but I think it can play a role here.
Caveat Lector, electrolytic capacitors have improved quite a bit since my bench work several decades ago. I would suggest defining exactly what you trying to improve and then make objective measurements.
Yes, electrolytic capacitors have become much better in recent decades. I don't think I have the equipment or the knowledge for reliable measurements ATM.
 
The thing most people neglect is that their meat organ hearing sensor, coupled to the brain, is extremely subjective, even from minute to minute.
Combine that with the use of stimulants (even a cup of coffee) and the ear is NOT an accurate measuring instrument. There has been a lot of measuring of caps, and none of it has produced a definitive answer, and the measurements are very low level. So if I was you, I would put my Neumann on a high quality musician and just record them. The variation in the musician is orders of magnitude greater than the variation in the caps.
 
The thing most people neglect is that their meat organ hearing sensor, coupled to the brain, is extremely subjective, even from minute to minute.
Combine that with the use of stimulants (even a cup of coffee) and the ear is NOT an accurate measuring instrument. There has been a lot of measuring of caps, and none of it has produced a definitive answer, and the measurements are very low level. So if I was you, I would put my Neumann on a high quality musician and just record them. The variation in the musician is orders of magnitude greater than the variation in the caps.
Doug, sometimes I ask myself if you always read the posts you reply to. I mention several times that the whole matter is highly subjective. BTW, the Neumann circuit is just one example. You seem a bit arrogant and patronising right now, there's no reason for that
 
Interesting, I also follow the min. 10% rule of thumb. Phase shift is unknown territory for me in detail, but I think it can play a role here.
0.22uF in parallel with C9 (25 uF) is more like 1% not 10%. From my bench testing results I don't expect 1% in parallel to make a significant difference.
Yes, electrolytic capacitors have become much better in recent decades. I don't think I have the equipment or the knowledge for reliable measurements ATM.
A 2.5 uF film cap may be larger and more expensive than is convenient. Many people claim success using small caps in parallel. I try not to argue with people in the WWW about what they claim to hear.

good luck

JR
 
0.22uF in parallel with C9 (25 uF) is more like 1% not 10%. From my bench testing results I don't expect 1% in parallel to make a significant difference.
You're right, I made a mistake. I blame it on the translation. :cool: I'm going to try your 10% variant.
I try not to argue with people in the WWW about what they claim to hear.
It's hard to compare, because you don't hear what the other person hears. Highly subjective. Something measurable would be better.
 
The answer is it depends. Passive components are a combination of resistance, capacitance, inductance. If you are paralleling things you create a new complex network where all the parameters are changed. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't.

To study it scientifically you could create a real world model of a capacitor, put it in a simulator, and then vary the parameters to see the effect.
 
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Do you have a link? This is a similar situation and maybe these resonances are the interactions of the two caps I hear?
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ilm-caps-with-electrolytic-caps.106648/page-9
Good thread with valueable information. Certain combinations of values work, others can be worst-case. Caps with higher ESR / more series resistance are better, as this flattens the curve. Because of trace inductance the distance of the caps from each other also matters a lot.

Every piece of gear I removed the added on parallel signal path caps from sounded better. Closer to the sourse. In my console the difference was big enough to show up audibly in an inversion test.
 
I raised this question after noticing that the Tube Tech eq had all their filter network caps in parallel.

I got a slap down by people pointing out that the real reason was to fine tune the curves by fine tuning the cap values.

But my mind still wants to believe in some sonic mojo that only sophisticated equipment could detect.
 
I raised this question after noticing that the Tube Tech eq had all their filter network caps in parallel.

I got a slap down by people pointing out that the real reason was to fine tune the curves by fine tuning the cap values.

But my mind still wants to believe in some sonic mojo that only sophisticated equipment could detect.
accuracy of filters can be audibly important.

JR
 
You can parallel a bunch of caps to lower the tolerance and get better accuracy.

But it can be a sonic choice as well. Ken Fischer advocated for it and it can certainly make a difference in guitar amps.
 
To study it scientifically you could create a real world model of a capacitor, put it in a simulator, and then vary the parameters to see the effect.
I haven't even thought about it yet, but a simulation could actually provide a little more clarity.
Good thread with valueable information. Certain combinations of values work, others can be worst-case. Caps with higher ESR / more series resistance are better, as this flattens the curve. Because of trace inductance the distance of the caps from each other also matters a lot.
Thank you for the link, it contains a lot of information. (y) I'll have a closer look at it today.
But my mind still wants to believe in some sonic mojo that only sophisticated equipment could detect.
LOL, you also belong to the group of romantic technicians, like me.😅
But it can be a sonic choice as well. Ken Fischer advocated for it and it can certainly make a difference in guitar amps.
In which position (PSU, cathode, filter or coupling) did Ken Fischer do this? A quick web search revealed that he sometimes connected a film coupling capacitor in parallel with a ceramic capacitor of the same size. So to speak, the 100% version compared to the 10% or 1% version.
He must have had his reasons for doing so.
Screenshot 2024-01-26 at 11-46-02 Prowess Amplifiers - Misc - Schematics - Trainwreck Express.png
 
The whole capacitor discussion makes me always smile...
In reality I never heard any difference between capacitors.
(It might be that I only used the 'good' ones... :) )

It is the same as with cables: some prefer oxide-free silver with teflon insulation, but all the professional studios I have worked in through the years only had 'cable', nothing special and several CDs were recorded with it!
There is a lot of 'audio foolery'...
 
There is a lot of 'audio foolery'...
Absolutely right, as I said, the topic is largely subjective without a doubt. On the other hand, I try to approach the matter rationally. The combination of different capacitors has been practised for a long time by many, even competent people, there must be more to it than just "audio foolery".

PS: please do not discuss cable sound here, the topic is already challenging enough.
 
Whenever I consider capacitor sound, I fall back on the bible: Bateman on Cap sound, https://linearaudio.net/cyril-batemans-capacitor-sound-articles
The basic take away is that if there is any AC voltage across a cap in the pass band, it had better be a good quality, low distortion cap, meaning not an electrolytic. Therefore filter caps should always be teflon, polypropylene or styrene. Electrolytics with cutoff frequencies below 20Hz have minimal 'sound' since they are virtual shorts (or at their ESR) in the audible band. Also consider the relative impedances in the pass band - an ESR anomaly at a fraction of an ohm makes little difference in a 10K ohm environment. Bypassing a short with a big expensive polypropylene capacitor is stupid (sorry, shall we say, a waste of resources). One other thing to consider is that an electrolytic in a coupling application may introduce measurable distortion at very low frequencies, not unlike line transformers. If this THD <.1% it's probably inaudible as any electroacoustic device (loudspeaker or headphone) is no doubt many times worse at this frequency.
 

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