Patchbay madness (do I need it?)

[Murdock]

Ok, I have a decision to make and I'm quite bad at it... So I need your help and recommendations.

I have an 24 channel modular frame Acousta DCA broadcast desk, a Motu 16A interface and some outboard gear.
I'll probably get another 16A or a Motu Monitor 8Ch interface in the future.
My desk has balanced direct outs and switchable balanced inserts. I will load the desk with 22 Mono channels (6 of them configured as groupchannels) and 2 stereo channels. So 26 input and 22 output channels (the stereo modules don't have direct outputs but have inserts). Plus Aux and Master section (8 inputs and 12 outputs).
I already wired a Lemo patchbay but did some mistakes and will probably do it all over.
The inserts are already on a seperate Lemo patchbay.
The question is, do I need/want all the direct outs and line inputs on the patchbay? Or should I just "hardwire" them to the interface ins and outs?
I fear that I'll regret it in the future and need the flexibility of having all connections on the patchbay.
What are the scenarios where one would route the direct outs to another source instead of interface (other than recording to tape, which I don't plan to do...) Or when would one route the DAW outs elsewhere as the Line inputs from the console?

Also the Lemo patchbay I plan to use does not have the shields/connectors isolated. The other Lemo Patchbay I have here, were I did some mistakes, has less patch points but has isolated connectors so I can decide where shields go.
Pin 1 of the console XLR connectors are all tied to signal ground inside the console. There are 3 seperate, isolated lugs on the back of the console for the 3 different "grounds" (signal, chassis, PE). All Line, Mic and Aux inputs are transformer balanced, the same with the Main and Aux outputs. All Inserts and Direct Outs are electronically balanced.
Pin 1/shell of the Motu 16A jacks are tied to chassis inside...

Can somebody please solve my brainfart...

PS: the console has two inputs per channel, each with it's own input transformer. I'm using inputs 1 for mics and I plug them directly into the console and I can switch between channel 1 and channel 2 on the console. So my questions is just about line signals.
Phantom power can also be switched independently for each of the two input channels.

 

[Brian Roth]

I am an Olde Phart who grew up in the analog desk/tape universe with patchbays, In this case, what will you do with the channel insert points?

I am not familiar with that desk, but also what to do with any group outputs?

Bri

 

[kags]

You prob want interface outs on bay to utilize outboard, which means you’ll need like ins. If you ever want to track through outboard pres, you’ll also need interface ins, which means also direct outs and/or group outs….

 

[Murdock]

Thanks for your input!

I am an Olde Phart who grew up in the analog desk/tape universe with patchbays, In this case, what will you do with the channel insert points?

I am not familiar with that desk, but also what to do with any group outputs?

Bri

I would use the inserts to incorporate my outboard gear during mixdown or tracking.

I can configure 8 mono channels of the desk as group channels on the pcb. This group function is then also switchable. When “grouping” is on, the direct outs function as group outputs.

You prob want interface outs on bay to utilize outboard, which means you’ll need like ins. If you ever want to track through outboard pres, you’ll also need interface ins, which means also direct outs and/or group outs….

Would you rather insert the outboard gear between interface out and line ins as opposed to using the console inserts?

I would probably still use the line inputs of the console when using outboard pre’s as I use my console for monitoring.

 

[nashkato]

I would probably still use the line inputs of the console when using outboard pre’s as I use my console for monitoring.

just that i get it right...
( got probably the same console ( got dca100eb , there's also dca 100 and dca 200) but am a little further away from all the patchbay / multicore and cabling)
you got 2 inputs on each monochannel which can both be set to line and mic input , no ?
so having one input on patch and the 2nd wired to interface was my thinking ( just like inline )
whereas i would have all inserts on the patch , just because plugging the tt on the backside of the desk is annoying.

ps : completely forgot about the group option , need to configure that cause i was missing some separate outs lately .

 

[kags]

Thanks for your input!


Would you rather insert the outboard gear between interface out and line ins as opposed to using the console inserts?

I would probably still use the line inputs of the console when using outboard pre’s as I use my console for monitoring.

Inserts vs patching outboard before line in kinda depends on a lot of things. For instance, is your insert pre or post EQ (or switchable)? Do the inserts play nice with all types of outboard. Some inserts are unbalanced or at a lower operating level than +4dBu - which may be a good or a thing depending on many other things.

You mention using the line-ins even when using outboard preamps. Would you track through the preamps directly to your DAW (requiring access to patch preamp out to interfacace in), or would you patch preamp out to console line in to channel output to interface in? Again, there are pros and cons for both options.

Commercial studios have to wire for any possible option, but you can wire for whatever you want. Just be prepared to expand your options down the line.

 

[Murdock]

Inserts vs patching outboard before line in kinda depends on a lot of things. For instance, is your insert pre or post EQ (or switchable)? Do the inserts play nice with all types of outboard. Some inserts are unbalanced or at a lower operating level than +4dBu - which may be a good or a thing depending on many other things.

You mention using the line-ins even when using outboard preamps. Would you track through the preamps directly to your DAW (requiring access to patch preamp out to interfacace in), or would you patch preamp out to console line in to channel output to interface in? Again, there are pros and cons for both options.

Commercial studios have to wire for any possible option, but you can wire for whatever you want. Just be prepared to expand your options down the line.

Inserts are balanced and pre EQ. Operating level is the same as the rest +6dBu.
As I probably won't track through outboard preamps that often I would just plug the outboard preamp directly into channel one of a mono module. So I would not go through the patchbay.
But your last sentence makes sense... I'll probably just do the work now and route everything to the patchbay and be "future-proof" for all possibilities that'll come my way.

just that i get it right...
( got probably the same console ( got dca100eb , there's also dca 100 and dca 200) but am a little further away from all the patchbay / multicore and cabling)
you got 2 inputs on each monochannel which can both be set to line and mic input , no ?
so having one input on patch and the 2nd wired to interface was my thinking ( just like inline )
whereas i would have all inserts on the patch , just because plugging the tt on the backside of the desk is annoying.

ps : completely forgot about the group option , need to configure that cause i was missing some separate outs lately .

Yes, got the same console (DCA100EB). I use one of the two inputs as line input. So this will either go the the patchbay or directly to the interface depending on what I decide to do.
The other input is left empty for microphones as I don't want to send mic signals through a patchbay. For now anyways.
Inserts are already on a patchbay.

 

[Murdock]

So I'll probably just do the work and route everything to the patchbay.
Now what about the grounding. Should I sacrifice patchpoints to have a patchbay where shields are isolated or do you think it's ok to use the bigger patchbay where Pin 1 is tied directly to the chassis at the patchbay? (No, I can not cut the chassis connection on the patchbay as the Lemo connectors have two pins plus one on the shell.

 

[kags]

Leave the ground all connected at the bay. Your can always lift pin one at the gear if needed.

You aren’t patching mics, either.