Peluso P-87 - Neumann patent?

[forzasalva]

Hello folks!
I was just curious about some of the modern microphones available on the market, especially on the german market.
Beside the DIY Kits with nearly 1:1 the same U87 body, there are some microphones like the Fame VT-67 or even the Peluso P-87
which look VERY similar to the Neumann U87 and are sold in Germany.

I remember the story between Rode and Neumann in the 90s where Rode was sued because of having copied the U87 headbasket design. As a result of this, the NT2 disappeared because Neumann had a patent on the headgrill 3D design.

What about today? Why are there a bunch of brands that are selling microphones that are more smilar to the U87 than the NT2 was back then. Does Neumann still have those patents?

B.R.

 

[Matt Nolan]

Patents only last for 20 years maxiumum, and only for as long within those 20 as the owner keeps paying the yearly renewal fees. Usually on a per-country basis, though there are some arrangements these days where you can get a Europe-wide one.

If you hold a patent in Europe but not in, for example, Australia, then a company can build and / or sell copies of your work in Australia. But not in Europe, of course. So, you have to apply for, be granted, and maintain Patents in all territories where you wish to enforce your intellectual property rights.

I don't think the issue with the U87 is a patent. If it was, it would be long since expired. I thought they had a registered design right in the shape of the headgrille. Design rights only last for a set period too though, so that should have expired now also. 25 years in the UK and EU.

Does anyone have any properly sourced information that shows Neumann were able to sue Rode or stop them selling in certain markets?

 

[micaddict]

Don't know about the P-87, but the P-67 is nothing at all like a U67, circuit wise.
Not even close.

And Dany's D-87 is the circuit of the old U87 (that had the battery compartment and 48V max on the capsule).

 

[ln76d]

These designs of headbaskates are different than rode and neumann. Rode was realy close, current chinese looks much more cheap and different. Beside that, rode intruduced NT2 more than 20 years ago.

 

[micaddict]

Hey, we might have woken someone up. 

 

[ln76d]

Do you think that Neumann will fight with all the chinese factories or force one John Peluso?
I doubt. Rode was different thing, it was long time ago where there was no chinese microphone market.
Everything started from rode!

 

[micaddict]

@ OP or me?

Anyway, I personally don't think so.

But it's almost June 30th, so it's about time to extend. 

 

[ln76d]

Everyone

 

[Banzai]

I don't think the big european brands really care all that much anymore. Best example for me, the Lucas CS-1 ripped off the entire internal chassis of the AKG C12VR, and no-one said a thing.

Guess if it even happens in this forum between members, why expect any different from the industry.

 

[Andy Peters]

I don't think the big european brands really care all that much anymore. Best example for me, the Lucas CS-1 ripped off the entire internal chassis of the C12VR, and no-one said a thing.

Guess if it even happens in this forum between members, why expect any different from the industry.

I think that, in these cases, the manufacturers are taking the tack that there are always going to be customers who want the real thing and are willing to pay for it. And nobody is fooled into thinking that the Lucas mic is a C12VR or that the Peluso mics are Neumanns (even as the Lucas and Peluso mics might be very good indeed).

That idea of staying above the fray works for high-end manufacturers who recognize that they aren't necessarily losing a sale to a customer who can't afford the product in the first place. It doesn't really work at the low/mid end, where a Behringer can rip off a Mackie (or other) product with no consequences.

-a

 

[ln76d]

And nobody is fooled into thinking that the Lucas mic is a C12VR or that the Peluso mics are Neumanns (even as the Lucas and Peluso mics might be very good indeed).

Not exactly , not so long time ago, was one example on gdiy and i saw few times over the web, that some people think that P67 from peluso is a copy of U67. Both circuits are completely different.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Court cases for infringement of patents or registered models are extremely risky. Very difficult to prove. Sennheiser (Neumann's parent company) knows better than chasing chicken thieves. They cannot expect getting much damages from a small company such as Peluso, and anyway, the people who buy Peluso probably would not have the money to buy real Neumann's; in addition, Peluso's use of the "87" moniker keeps the flame burning...

 

[micaddict]

^
This exactly.

 

[GeorgeToledo]

I’m bumping this because I’m
curious if anyone has links to relevant documents.

I don’t understand how Neumann has pulled this off when they:

-Didn’t invent angled headbaskets.
-Didn’t invent the shape of the preceding M49 headbasket.
-The Fairchild/Syncron F22 headbasket is precisely the shape of the U67 headbasket they have domain over, yet it was made by Syncron years prior.
-They have been inconsistent in defending their supposed right, allowing Gefell to do as they wish, and apparently shying away from doing anything to Mojave, Wunder, and some others (is it from the side bars being parallel, and a generally shrunken down M49 vibe more than U67?)

I was just looking at yet another brand who has shifted to the top bar of the headbasket being curved, and am just baffled over this.

 

[GeorgeToledo]

https://www.coutant.org/syncron/index.html

 

[Spiritworks]

Interesting read about Synchron. Turns out they were manufactured not too far from me here in Connecticut.

 

[Drea]

If you want a new patent on your work after 30 years it must be 8% different of the predecessor.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

If you want a new patent on your work after 30 years it must be 8% different of the predecessor.

Percentage of what? Paper weight, number of characters, epistemiologic content...?

 

[JohnRoberts]

If you want a new patent on your work after 30 years it must be 8% different of the predecessor.

Being different is not enough to win a utility patent (it must be novel and useful). Perhaps being different enough can win a design patent (like the shape of the coke bottle).

JR

 

[Drea]

in the end only a jury/judge decided if it’s the 8% criteria.