poor vs quality part experience in DIY audio

[kambo]

in my DIY experience,
output transformers are the most
tubes second,
capacitors are third and least effective on sound...
i dont even bother with resistors anymore...

but, it all adds up...

if you time stretch an audio clip, back and forward 100 times...
better the algorithm better the end resulting sound...
but, if u time stretch 10% just for once. difference between algorithm would be almost null in most cases....

 

[joaquins]

It depends, sometimes is reliability, sometimes feel, sometimes the audio quality or the sound you are looking for. I don't know what you are specifically talking about but starting with transformers and tubes probably building old stuff.

  Using better switches and connectors probably won't affect the sound but it won't last long if you use crappy switches.

  You may use plastic pots but some brands gives you better feeling when using them than others, even at the same quality range, so you pick it just for the feeling, not for the sound quality.

  It's well known for guitar stuff is more important the actual part than the quality. A JRC4558 would be much better than a NE5532 for a TS9, but we probably agree than the NE5532 is a higher quality opamp for most audio applications. Same thing with tubes, I know a guitar amp factory and I get the luck to speak to one of the owners and he explained me they used very cheap 12AX7 but very expensive output tubes because they tried out every other combination and this is the one they liked the most.

  Other factors came to the game when you are in production, maybe is not because you can't afford better components but sometimes you are better using the money for something else in the design, instead of having the better caps you can get you are fine with some cheaper ones so you can pay more attention and money into more critical stuff and you decide to go for a better opamp (just calling an example, probably you can't affor a much better opamp with what you are saving in caps) But as your question is for DIY most of the time the budget isn't a problem since we are already saving a load of money in other aspects and in small run component price doesn't build up, of course there is a limit, you sometimes can't afford a Jensen transformer so you pick a much cheaper one, but in caps, unless you get the audiophoolery caps get in you won't have trouble buying good quality caps of whatever material you like, NPO aren't a mad thing and they are much better than any other ceramic in most applications. Opamps do vary a lot and you can get opamps from a few cents to tens of dollars, if you need 3 opamps you probably can afford the expensive ones, if they are good for something it's fine. If you need 100s and the difference isn't so big you probably will be fine with a mid range ones.

  In my case I have a hard time to get a lot of parts, I could walk for half an hour till I get a silver-mica cap, once I'm in the place most electronic houses are and I have to be lucky to get the value I need. Same thing with NPOs so for my prototypes I almost always end up using the most crappy ones, then once I know the values I need I place a big order with all that in my usual sources but sometimes that order never arrives, they still miss parts or I only need a few for a small project which ends up with X5R and there it is working. The worst part is when I try to find something more hard to get like a vactrol, when I end up giving up and using LED and LDRs if I was lucky enough to get those, forget then of proper data sheet of the cell and all you have learned before. I've gave up with some projects just because I couldn't get the proper parts, and when that happens I start to cry... well, not to cry but get pretty angry about all this. Then I remember I do DIY for fun and in my real designs will be someone who will be buying the parts I specified and they will be able to get them. It's just me living in a corner of the world where electronics doesn't seems to be a real thing and we don't even find metal film resistors on every store we go.

JS

 

[Seeker]

I've also spent a lot if time trying to figure out what matters in audio circuits... It is one of the very rewarding parts of diy, you mod gear, listen before and after... Build the same circuit with different parts....  After listening, I've made some quite different decisions than recommended by a few well known people... 

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I've also spent a lot if time trying to figure out what matters in audio circuits... It is one of the very rewarding parts of diy, you mod gear, listen before and after... Build the same circuit with different parts....  After listening, I've made some quite different decisions than recommended by a few well known people... 

In the end you find that the most important part is circuit design.

 

[JohnRoberts]

In many cases modern technology provides alternate ways to accomplish tasks so we don't have to pass audio through transformers and vacuum tubes.  Using modern alternate technology can avoid the well known shortcomings of older technology.

I suspect the subjective impression of (sound) quality, may vary quite a bit from my more objective (bench) measurement goals.

If it sounds good it is good, but it needs to sound good to everybody or at least most people?

YMMV

JR

 

[pucho812]

don't believe the hype.    Some parts are just expensive and there is a good reason. Others well you can go cheap or expensive but does it improve the sound? Well maybe maybe not.  My buddy had some china 12AX7  tubes that sounded good awful in every  amp  he had except for one marshal  50 watt. It just sounded better with those el cheapo china tubes as a preamp. When it comes to picking parts, I never skimp on transformers and capsules. So much little science going on in those things. Tubes I don't always go NOS nor will I go with expensive depending on the application.  Pots I am more concerned with feel and even some expensive ones get scratchy over time. The universal 1176 has pec sealed pots and they get scratchy over time. I don't know how as they are sealed but after a while scratchy and you either replace them or carefully drill a tiny hole so you can deoxit them. I have not been 100% successful drilling in the hole as I have slipped before.  Resistors, I am more concerned with tolerances and if they fit vs brand although there are guys you will tell you to use brand X as it sound best. I can't say that is true but hey if the tolerance is there well then maybe it does sound better, but is it brand X or part tolerance? I must admit though I do like to holco resistors for no other reason then they print the value on the part, no more having to read color codes.  When it comes to SMT resistors, well if it fits, done deal.    Capacitors is a whole other thing. Does spending the money that some of those can command really worth it? I recently recapped some urei crossovers and the choices I had for cap went from reasonable ( 1-12 dollars range) to off the deep end with caps costing over 100 dollars for one. I can't see how buying a 100.00 dollar cap would really matter but maybe I am missing something there.  In the end I went with the more economical caps that people around here had used before and said were good.  They sound great and I don't the 100 dollar capacitors making  that huge a difference.

 

[JohnRoberts]

don't believe the hype.    Some parts are just expensive and there is a good reason.

and some parts are expensive because they sell so few that they are made by small companies, with high overhead costs, and  low volume. So they are expensive because they are not popular.

Others well you can go cheap or expensive but does it improve the sound? Well maybe maybe not. 

Design engineering involves understanding data sheets and applying components so they are operating within their linear design range.  Expensive parts used wrong will not sound as good as cheap parts used correctly.

My buddy had some china 12AX7  tubes that sounded good awful in every  amp  he had except for one marshal  50 watt. It just sounded better with those el cheapo china tubes as a preamp.

Tubes can deliver a range of open loop gains when new and vary even more when used. Tube circuits can be conservative about closed lop gain so variations in the open loop gain makes less of a difference. While many guitar amps are operating WFO so the tubes and tube condition matters.

When it comes to picking parts, I never skimp on transformers and capsules. So much little science going on in those things.

I try to never use transformers because they are very expensive to make almost as good as a solid state interface. Capsules will be very significant to the final sound result.

Tubes I don't always go NOS nor will I go with expensive depending on the application. 

NOS has to be a shrinking pool of parts unless counterfeited.

Pots I am more concerned with feel and even some expensive ones get scratchy over time. The universal 1176 has pec sealed pots and they get scratchy over time. I don't know how as they are sealed but after a while scratchy and you either replace them or carefully drill a tiny hole so you can deoxit them. I have not been 100% successful drilling in the hole as I have slipped before. 

Pots wear out from use so being sealed makes only a marginal difference... Deoxit may postpone the eventual replacement but if you value your time ,  just go ahead and replace the worn pot. 

Resistors, I am more concerned with tolerances and if they fit vs brand although there are guys you will tell you to use brand X as it sound best. I can't say that is true but hey if the tolerance is there well then maybe it does sound better, but is it brand X or part tolerance? I must admit though I do like to holco resistors for no other reason then they print the value on the part, no more having to read color codes.  When it comes to SMT resistors, well if it fits, done deal. 

There are valid arguments that too small SMD resistors have issues but generally resistors are low on the list of problem components.

Capacitors is a whole other thing. Does spending the money that some of those can command really worth it? I recently recapped some urei crossovers and the choices I had for cap went from reasonable ( 1-12 dollars range) to off the deep end with caps costing over 100 dollars for one. I can't see how buying a 100.00 dollar cap would really matter but maybe I am missing something there.  In the end I went with the more economical caps that people around here had used before and said were good.  They sound great and I don't the 100 dollar capacitors making  that huge a difference.

Yes, capacitors are a whole thing... While they don't all have to be expensive, back in the day I used tons of polystyrene that only cost pennies and had a superior dielectric characteristic, but polystyrene caps were not robust enough for modern manufacturing processes so fell out of favor with manufacturers. These days a new generation of COG/NPO smd caps are decent.

If you are talking about "passive" loudspeaker crossovers that is a case where the rubber meets the road for capacitors. A 20uF DC blocking cap driving a 20 kOhm load is just loafing along, but a 20uF cap in a passive crossover driving an 8 Ohm speaker, is doing some serious work, so the sundry nonlinear (and linear) behaviors get exaggerated by the high current.

Of course instead of hundred dollar capacitors you can use an active crossover with cheaper or no (DSP) caps and bi-amp the speakers, so the caps are in a happy place and you can make a better crossover curve too. While it does require more amp channels.

I do not know if the $100 caps are worth $100 (probably not), but there is a valid  justification for using better caps there.

JR