Protests - George Floyd

[desol]

Is it just me or do people need a reason to get out? Shouldn't these people be focused on staying home?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Is it just me or do people need a reason to get out? Shouldn't these people be focused on staying home?

I expect lots of people have cabin fever grasping at any excuse to get out. (Sadly I have been sheltering in place for years already).

We will find out within weeks wether this causes a spike in new COVID19 infections.

There were a few documented examples of high profile people, who advocated sheltering in place but could not resist the siren call of a politically advantageous photo opportunity.

In at least in one photo op I saw they wore a mask, while kneeling shoulder to shoulder. There are multiple ways to interpret this apparent conflict with official advice, pick one that fits your world view.

(at least one such embarrassing image has already been scrubbed )

Normal people have been prohibited from having funerals with full family and friends in attendance, but if you are killed by police and become a cause celebre for the left, you not only get unlimited attendance at multiple services but a traveling road show.  On may 10th Governor Cuomo dropped the ban on gatherings and allowed up to 10 people as long as they practiced social distancing (6 feet). https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/home As of jun6th New Yorkers are still required to wear masks in public and maintain 6' spacing.  Apparently that requirement was relaxed if lights and TV cameras are present.  :

I still can't predict the future but sure hope the does not impact restarting the economy. 

Good luck making sense of this. I predict a "do what I say, not what I do" response if caught and questioned, wouldn't be the first time.

JR

PS: The republican national convention is pulling out of NC because the governor will not negotiate social distancing rules appropriate for that gathering.

 

[desol]

Go figure...

If lives matter, stay the f**k home. Duh.

Pardon es moi.

 

[crazydoc]

PS: The republican national convention is pulling out of NC because the governor will not negotiate social distancing rules appropriate for that gathering.

Well, since it's a huge gathering there won't be any social distancing possibilities, and since they're republicans they won't be wearing any masks. Of course the most rational plan would be to not have it, but again since they're republicans they will. But it will be a nice covid experiment.

 

[Tubetec]

What I find to be a curious twist of fate is that D.T. was banging on about building walls for years , now he has actually succeeded in getting one built around the white house to protect him from the American public   

 

[bluebird]

What is going on around here? Do people not understand what this is about? Police have been murdering black people since "slave patrols" in the 1700's.  Any human being with even a shred of decency, should be supporting these protests. And if you don't please be quite. Its offensive. :'(

 

[JohnRoberts]

Well, since it's a huge gathering there won't be any social distancing possibilities, and since they're republicans they won't be wearing any masks. Of course the most rational plan would be to not have it, but again since they're republicans they will. But it will be a nice covid experiment.

Rational?  This may still just be a negotiation since the convention isn't even scheduled until Aug... Coincidentally the democrats delayed their convention one month until mid Aug over Covid concerns. These generally involve massive logistical planning, comprehensive security in normal times, and financial guarantees.

I know at least one republican who wears his mask in public as currently requested.

JR

PS: For some possible insight into how a president with a business background negotiates...... in a probable negotiation with Angela Merkel over G7 attendance, he is threatening to reduce US military forces based in Germany to 25,000 from current 34,500. The first question to ask is why do we have almost 35k troops in Germany  7 decades after the end of WWII and what was supposed to be a 10 year occupation. The second questions is why are they squealing like starving piglets over the threat of force reduction. Answer #1 is about NATO that EU is still not pulling their weight, but answer #2 is all about the Benjamins.  35k troops permanent party in Germany spend a lot of money into the local economy.  I recall in the 1970s I was part of a NATO exercise where we flew an entire US army infantry division from FT Riley Kansas, to Germany for several weeks. That was not cheaper, but good training for air force and army, not to mention kept all those military payrolls spent in America for the rest of the year. I suspect a similar transaction may be happening over the convention in NC, the governor there should not want to lose the business bump to his state economy. 

 

[desol]

So...now, we have protests breaking out in Canada...where nothing happened (or ever seems to)....and, we have people suggesting there's now 'a systemic problem with racism in the police force, in Canada too'.

This is nonsense...I've seen so many officers dealing with native americans, etc....all my life. I know the story...i grew up in it.

The police commissioner clearly said, Canada does not have a systemic problem with racism in the police force. It's ridiculous.

It's an exaggeration and is simply not true.

George Floyd's death was accidental...it wasn't murder.  :

 

[bluebird]

George Floyd's death was accidental...it wasn't murder.  :

;D Your a funny man... When has protest for civil rights ever been on the wrong side of history?

 

[bluebird]

Oh my bad, didn't mean to have my knee on your neck for 8 minutes while your in hand cuffs with three other officers right next to me as you tell me you can't breath and ask for your mother...

 

[living sounds]

What is going on around here? Do people not understand what this is about? Police have been murdering black people since "slave patrols" in the 1700's.  Any human being with even a shred of decency, should be supporting these protests. And if you don't please be quite. Its offensive. :'(

No, they don't understand. Neither what is going on nor what is at stake. It is just sad.

 

[boji]

I can see both sides:

An overwhelming desire to protest so as to stop the police from racial profiling, and the concomitant use of brutal arrest methods that sometimes become acts of murder/manslaughter. Because some people have either experienced firsthand or via social media these horrific acts, they have put this at the top of their moral hierarchy so to see change occur.

And

People have had family members die from covid, and they can't square the loss of respect for the other killing machine (covid) that requires social distancing to reduce, with the close contact of protesting. Because some people have either experienced firsthand or via social media these deathly circumstances, they have put this at the top of their moral hierarchy so to see change occur.


Please dear citizens,  note that both sides are concerned with protecting people from suffering or death-- Find the common elements and come together on solutions. Don't ridicule or try to silence people that have different perspectives with ad hominem attacks that imply their hierarchy of values/morals are twisted.

 

[boji]

So you think George Floyd's death was an accident too?

How on earth did you derive that from what I wrote? You're not really reading or speaking to what I've said.

 

[boji]

told us not to try to silence the ugliness that is being put forth.

Where, precisely?  Your reply suggests you read me to mean the complete inverse of the spirit of the point I was attempting to make.

Edit: My response directly above was not well-written. To be more concise about the spirit of the post I jumped in with earlier:

Love, understanding and compassion are tools that generally, make the world better.
The tools of enmity, distrust, and hatred generally make the world worse.

Anyone who believes the latter set of tools*** are superior for producing macrosocial course corrections towards a better world will, under most circumstances, fail to realize their larger objectives. 

***Note I did not include anger or a sense of injustice because they can be found in both toolboxes, and are quite useful.

 

[JohnRoberts]

You came in saying you understood both sides and told us not to try to silence the ugliness that is being put forth.

Everybody believes that George Floyd's death is a tragedy that should not have happened.  Instead of using this as an opportunity to push reform forward faster, we debate about who is more woke or more racist.

There is no way to defend Chauvin, the officer who killed George Floyd, but his action does not make every police officer racist, including the entire system***.  Likewise there is no way to defend rioting and looting.

JR

*** there is a good argument that Chauvin's supervisors should have removed him already. I posted elsewhere about the recent FBI database created to document excessive force arrest incidents for analysis. That database is only a year old but looks like the federal government is now paying attention to the issue. Maybe we should have started this database years/decades ago?  We might have seen results already.

 

[bluebird]

Please dear citizens,  note that both sides are concerned with protecting people from suffering or death-- Find the common elements and come together on solutions. Don't ridicule or try to silence people that have different perspectives with ad hominem attacks that imply their hierarchy of values/morals are twisted.

Nope, love you boji, but the two sides are not equal. A virus is a natural occurrence, social injustice is perpetrated by evil ignorant people and a broken system of government. Catching a cold(or even dying of one)  and the historical suffering and oppression of a whole race of people are not the same thing, not even close. I'm surprised you are trying to argue that point?

I am a good citizen on this forum, I stand behind my position of not saying anything to people I wouldn't say to they're face in person. I am gentle and understanding, so the fact that I am acting this way should tell you something. Should point to the importance of this moment in history.

 

[john12ax7]

The police commissioner clearly said, Canada does not have a systemic problem with racism in the police force.

Someone saying something automatically makes it true? In the US there has been case after case of police claiming one version of events only to have video evidence come out showing a completely different story.  The police hiding the wrongdoing of other police is a huge part of the problem.

Regarding the protests I have seen elderly people interviewed on local tv.  They recognized the health risk they were taking,  but felt the cause of the protest was more important.

 

[john12ax7]

*** there is a good argument that Chauvin's supervisors should have removed him already.

Virtually impossible with the strength of the unions and with people like Kroll running them.  This is why  I asked about him in the other thread.  But you implied it's lazy thinking and not constructive.  So it's rather unclear of what your position is.

 

[boji]

Nope, love you boji, but the two sides are not equal.

I don't mean to imply both positions are equal in importance, only that I can see that the differences in perspectives are what is driving the debate, and at their core, both are attempting to rid the world of suffering, which is a good thing.

I've no exclusion principle playing around in my mind. Not a zero-sum game, to appreciate the motivations that drive people to take caution, or stand for what is right.

Edit: grammer.

Post thought:  If I may steelman the covid perspective a wee bit more:  what if in the process of close quarter protesting (a constitutional right) more people die than would've if the violence and prejudice of cops had not received a full-on, take-to-the-streets type of universal condemnation?  Sacrificing the lives of Americans is worth the cost of an improved, more humane law enforcement system that rejects racial profiling.  At the cost of how many lives? How many is too many?  10,000?  1,000,000?  Or, is it as many as are needed until justice is achieved and equality-for-all has become a lived-in reality? 
(Assume the people who are most likely to catch it and die are protesters and whoever they come in contact with, ie friends, family)

My ultimate point to steelmanning it is to consider a future covid, perhaps one with a higher R0.  What behaviors we normalize in the face of covid today may be a precursor to what follows.

 

[Scodiddly]

Ultimately the people protesting have concluded that doing something to stop the systemic racism and violence against black people has a higher health priority than a global pandemic. 

And I agree with them.

A riot is nobody's first choice, but it's what you end up with after every other avenue of protest has fallen on deaf ears.