Quad Eight & Helios sound

[boji]

Sup y'all.

Thanks to the many kind folks around here, I've probably learned what an API desk sounds like. Simple amp blocks stack to produce a punchy sound, with some phasey, subtle gravitas-magic happening on higher track counts.

But what does a Quad desk, or a Helios desk uniquely do to mixes? What is the allure surrounding them, and how do they measure against other brands of the era?

 

[ruffrecords]

I know nothing about Quad but I would say the Helios sound owes a lot to the combination of its three transistor class A preamp which just happens to be biased so as to create predominately 2nd harmonic distortion (like a triode) plus its musical inductor based EQ.

Cheers

Ian

 

[pucho812]

I assume you mean quad eight?

If so I can tell you the early stuff was discrete and ran off high voltage so you had lots of headroom.

 

[Gold]

All the older Q8 stuff like the 310 and 312 is swinging input topology, whether it looks like a graphic EQ or not. They are much less aggressive sounding than API. They are broad and have a different character than Neve 80 series. Less precise.

 

[living sounds]

I remember it being mentioned frequently that the inductor based EQ with very broad curves has something to do with it.

 

[boji]

whether it looks like a graphic EQ or not.

Ok so in the case of the 310, the mic/line input is controlled by varying resistance between the legs of the inputs?
Suppose I ought to simply look at the schematic. Thanks everyone.

 

[Gold]

Ok so in the case of the 310, the mic/line input is controlled by varying resistance between the legs of the inputs?
Suppose I ought to simply look at the schematic. Thanks everyone.

The mic pre is a separate amp block than the EQ. The ones I have/had also have an active HPF/LPF with a separate amp block.

 

[user 37518]

Didn't Quad 8 basically steal the designs from Electrodyne? Would be nice if Ken Hirsch from Orphan Audio could chime in.

 

[pucho812]

Didn't Quad 8 basically steal the designs from Electrodyne? Would be nice if Ken Hirsch from Orphan Audio could chime in.

From a tape op article

“Throughout the '60s Quad-Eight was a sales company that had Electrodyne build their consoles, thus many of the early Quad-Eight consoles have Electrodyne stamped on the components inside.”

 

[Brian Roth]

I checked online, and the article is in TapeOp #49 Sept/)ct 2005. In that article, it is CLAIMED:

"The next day I come back to work and all our schematics were out all over the place, on the floor with foot prints on them and everything and all our blueprint toner ink was gone. Well, sure enough Bud paid the truck driver for Electrodyne at the time and had come in and copied all our designs. All except the A-1000 op amp design, as we never did a schematic for just that reason!"

Shrug.....

Bri

​

 

[user 37518]

I checked online, and the article is in TapeOp #49 Sept/)ct 2005. In that article, it is CLAIMED:

"The next day I come back to work and all our schematics were out all over the place, on the floor with foot prints on them and everything and all our blueprint toner ink was gone. Well, sure enough Bud paid the truck driver for Electrodyne at the time and had come in and copied all our designs. All except the A-1000 op amp design, as we never did a schematic for just that reason!"

Shrug.....

Bri

​

Yeap, that is the story I remember hearing, kinda like a Ocean's Eleven heist.

 

[Gold]

Sphere consoles are very similar to QE. The Sphere 900 EQ is similar to the QE 712.

 

[AtticMan]

But isn't it the case that a single Quad or Helios channel strip (mic pre/EQ) is less likely to give you "that sound" than 16 or 24 tracks all recorded and/or mixed therewith? The reading I've done seems to indicate it's the stacking or adding of multiple tracks that's necessary to give a recording a <insert favorite console brand here> sound.

 

[pucho812]

But isn't it the case that a single Quad or Helios channel strip (mic pre/EQ) is less likely to give you "that sound" than 16 or 24 tracks all recorded and/or mixed therewith? The reading I've done seems to indicate it's the stacking or adding of multiple tracks that's necessary to give a recording a <insert favorite console brand here> sound.

That is what I always felt.

 

[Gold]

But isn't it the case that a single Quad or Helios channel strip (mic pre/EQ) is less likely to give you "that sound" than 16 or 24 tracks all recorded and/or mixed therewith? The reading I've done seems to indicate it's the stacking or adding of multiple tracks that's necessary to give a recording a <insert favorite console brand here> sound.

I used a pair of QE312’s in my mastering rig for over 20 years. They sere pulled from a console I ised that was decommissioned. The console sounded fantastic, when it worked. I don’t know if just using two is that sound or this sound but the EQ’s work pretty well for EQ ing.

QE was mostly found in film production in the early days. Sphere was sold for music production. I’ve seen Sphere mastering consoles. The Sphere 900 is a great EQ too.

 

[pucho812]

I used a pair of QE312’s in my mastering rig for over 20 years. They sere pulled from a console I ised that was decommissioned. The console sounded fantastic, when it worked. I don’t know if just using two is that sound or this sound but the EQ’s work pretty well for EQ ing.

QE was mostly found in film production in the early days. Sphere was sold for music production. I’ve seen Sphere mastering consoles. The Sphere 900 is a great EQ too.

Well, that’s a good question. You mainly are dealing with 2 tracks of audio so maybe? I can agree and say that the eq’s were good sounding.

 

[john12ax7]

Not sure how they compare to the console, but the P1 and Pacifica preamp are supposedly based on the quad eight. There is this creamy midrange quality with them that none of my other gear has.

 

[Gold]

The Pacifica and Ventura were later QE consoles. I am not familiar with those.

 

[ruffrecords]

But isn't it the case that a single Quad or Helios channel strip (mic pre/EQ) is less likely to give you "that sound" than 16 or 24 tracks all recorded and/or mixed therewith? The reading I've done seems to indicate it's the stacking or adding of multiple tracks that's necessary to give a recording a <insert favorite console brand here> sound.

I am sure there is some truth in that but how many inputs you need to combine to be able to hear the 'glue' effect I don't know. What I do know is that my very first 6 channel tube mixer current serves in a Swiss studio where three stereo stems are passed though it for that very reason.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Ó Draighnáin]

I know a little bit about Helios, from reading and my experience building bits and pieces.

As far as I can tell (and putting aside the germanium discussion for the moment), the earlier Helios consoles (with the M10 input xfm) used the three transistor design amp (and slight variants thereof) as mic pre, eq make up, fader buffer, bus/master amp and for line outs. The amp was also found in fx returns. No two consoles were quite the same. The early consoles had low headroom (0 - 24V) and I believe they were preferably run as close to the edge of headroom as possible. There was probably quite a lot of subtle clipping going on (multiple stages - clipped signals being clipped again?) with possibly slightly starved outputs (e.g. the load on the buffer amp with the panpot, aux sends, &c). I read somewhere that the router contributed quite a bit to the overall console functioning/sound.

Later, the seven transistor design amp was used (32V - 36V) as the eq make up and fader buffer amp, which improved headroom but there was a change of input transformer that was not appreciated by all.

Given the number of amp stages, and the summing, it would be expected for such a console to have a different sound to just the mic pre eq? Perhaps even a channel strip (with router) has a different sound to a mic pre eq?

It is said (in the wisdom of the interwebs) that early Helios consoles were noisy, high cross talk, and had low headroom and that it was all down to the talent that was recorded (who would have sounded good recorded with a 4-track Tascam porta studio).

Personally, I happen to like the sound and the simplicity of the Helios designs.

 

[pucho812]

I know a little bit about Helios, from reading and my experience building bits and pieces.

As far as I can tell (and putting aside the germanium discussion for the moment), the earlier Helios consoles (with the M10 input xfm) used the three transistor design amp (and slight variants thereof) as mic pre, eq make up, fader buffer, bus/master amp and for line outs. The amp was also found in fx returns. No two consoles were quite the same. The early consoles had low headroom (0 - 24V) and I believe they were preferably run as close to the edge of headroom as possible. There was probably quite a lot of subtle clipping going on (multiple stages - clipped signals being clipped again?) with possibly slightly starved outputs (e.g. the load on the buffer amp with the panpot, aux sends, &c). I read somewhere that the router contributed quite a bit to the overall console functioning/sound.

Later, the seven transistor design amp was used (32V - 36V) as the eq make up and fader buffer amp, which improved headroom but there was a change of input transformer that was not appreciated by all.

Given the number of amp stages, and the summing, it would be expected for such a console to have a different sound to just the mic pre eq? Perhaps even a channel strip (with router) has a different sound to a mic pre eq?

It is said (in the wisdom of the interwebs) that early Helios consoles were noisy, high cross talk, and had low headroom and that it was all down to the talent that was recorded (who would have sounded good recorded with a 4-track Tascam porta studio).

Personally, I happen to like the sound and the simplicity of the Helios designs.

Many a console from yesteryear was not ideal by todays standards as far as specs but they were the best they could do at the time. What matters most was the end result, the music.

 

[AtticMan]

Given the number of amp stages, and the summing, it would be expected for such a console to have a different sound to just the mic pre eq? Perhaps even a channel strip (with router) has a different sound to a mic pre eq?

Yeah, this point as well. Even a single track would have gone thru multiple amps/transformers on its way to tape (and back!), so it's probably a combination of this in addition to the multiple tracks building up to achieve the console "sound".