Quad Eight & Helios sound

[pucho812]

Yeah, this point as well. Even a single track would have gone thru multiple amps/transformers on its way to tape (and back!), so it's probably a combination of this in addition to the multiple tracks building up to achieve the console "sound".

Different console but my buddies desk from rca has a transformer at every in and output stage. So in a typical channel path from input to bus out, there are at least 4 if you kick in the melcor eq, there are 5. That’s a whole lot of iron before you even get to the recorder

 

[Gold]

The QE console that the MM312’s I have came from was a 32x24x2. It was split format, with a 24 input tape monitor. The full 32 channels had the mic preamp with 3 band EQ and HPF/LPF in a single module. The line input transformer was located at the rear of the console. It’s not on that module.

There was an Aux Send module. I think 4 mono and 2 stereo. There was the Bus module.

There were 8 VCA Groups assigned with thumbwheel switches on the channel faders.

Monitor and meters. That’s about it.

 

[Gold]

Here is a link to a place that uses a Sphere mastering console. A QE mastering console would have looked similar. Nashville Record Productions

 

[pucho812]

Here is a link to a place that uses a Sphere mastering console. A QE mastering console would have looked similar. Nashville Record Productions

Wonder what the oh shit button does?

 

[Gold]

Wonder what the oh shit button does?

My guess would be either nothing or mutes signal to the cutter.

 

[InterstellarObscure]

But what does a Quad desk, or a Helios desk uniquely do to mixes? What is the allure surrounding them, and how do they measure against other brands of the era?

There were few if any commercial recording consoles in the early ‘60s designed with the kind of feature-set that high end studios wanted. There were broadcast consoles, but these were extremely expensive and generally considered impractical for many or most recording studios. From what I’ve read, many engineers at this time considered input and output transformers per stage on a modular desk (like Neve) to be a detriment to a strong signal chain.

Helios in the UK and other similar manufacturers (like Electrodyne, Quad Eight, etc, in the US) came around at the right time to meet the needs of an expanding pop music recoding studio market. Helios offered innovative features in an affordable and attractive package, and they virtually dominated the emerging UK market in the early 70s.

This period also happened to be one of the most prodigious periods in creative popular music; a tremendous and disproportionate amount of classic records were all made at this time in independent studios in the UK and many or possibly most of them using Helios consoles.

Is there something special about the sound of a Helios consoles that resulted in so many classic records? Would Jimi Hendrix or the Stones have made the same records without the proto-Helios at Olympic? or would Joy Division had made the same Unknown Pleasures without the Helios at Strawberry Studios?

I happen to love vintage consoles and music electronics of all kinds, and I think Helios made the coolest studio consoles of all time. But the electronics and features are not that different than other consoles of the period.

 

[ruffrecords]

I don't know how old you are but I can tell you that Helios was just one of a number of names building big consoles in the 70s and not a particularly big player. They certainly did not as you say " virtually dominated the emerging UK market in the early 70s". I know, I was at Neve at the time. Neve was certainly the Rolls Royce of the time, closely followed by the likes of Cadac, Audix, Calrec, Harrison, API and Helios, not forgetting SSL. Helios was very much cost driven with simplified electronics, simplified mechanics and unbalanced patch bays and outputs. They did have a very musical EQ which endeared them to many musicians including Eric Clapton and the Stones. But not all musicians liked Helios consoles. The Who got rid of their Helios at Ramport studios and replaced it with a Neve (I know because I designed that console).

Cheers

Ian

 

[InterstellarObscure]

Yes, maybe I overstated that, ha.

but in my defense, I was only speaking of a narrow band of years. It sure seems like if one were a top UK recording artist in the years ‘69-‘74, and if you were starting up a studio, theres A good chance you were buying a Helios. If it was a top independent studio or mobile unit during these years, ‘69-‘74 and they weren‘t using their own custom board like Trident or Sound Techniques or others, then theres a good chance they were using Helios.

These boards were mostly all replaced after only a few years, as it was at Rampart, and Helios folded by the end of the 70s. So obviously Helios didn’t have the lasting presence of Neve, SSL, API.

But with so few studios back then, and quite a few of them using Helios, it seems like you’d have to characterize Helios as a major presence (if not actually dominating) in this brief early 70s period.

am I off base?

 

[fazer]

The Sound Techniques is a very interesting console. I’ve heard that it was the console recording numerous albums raved about at trident and the trident consoles get the credit. I know the first recordings of Hendrix at IBC was on a Sound Techniques console. Wind cry’s Mary, Hey Joe and others were recorded their. The over compression on the cymbals is beautiful to my ears. Helios in the Stones mobile has an incredible history

 

[ruffrecords]

Yes, maybe I overstated that, ha.

but in my defense, I was only speaking of a narrow band of years. It sure seems like if one were a top UK recording artist in the years ‘69-‘74, and if you were starting up a studio, theres A good chance you were buying a Helios. If it was a top independent studio or mobile unit during these years, ‘69-‘74 and they weren‘t using their own custom board like Trident or Sound Techniques or others, then theres a good chance they were using Helios.

These boards were mostly all replaced after only a few years, as it was at Rampart, and Helios folded by the end of the 70s. So obviously Helios didn’t have the lasting presence of Neve, SSL, API.

But with so few studios back then, and quite a few of them using Helios, it seems like you’d have to characterize Helios as a major presence (if not actually dominating) in this brief early 70s period.

am I off base?

I am happy to agree that Helios were a major presence. The came from nothing in 1969 and by the time they closed in 1979 they had built 50 custom consoles. No mean achievement.

Cheers

Ian

 

[pucho812]

The Sound Techniques is a very interesting console. I’ve heard that it was the console recording numerous albums raved about at trident and the trident consoles get the credit. I know the first recordings of Hendrix at IBC was on a Sound Techniques console. Wind cry’s Mary, Hey Joe and others were recorded their. The over compression on the cymbals is beautiful to my ears. Helios in the Stones mobile has an incredible history

The early trident studios stuff was all sound techniques. The trident a-range, I have heard various dates as to when it was actually installed. I have heard from 1972 up to 1975 as dates when the trident a-range was installed at trident. Dates seem to change based on where you read it.

 

[InterstellarObscure]

I am happy to agree that Helios were a major presence. The came from nothing in 1969 and by the time they closed in 1979 they had built 50 custom consoles. No mean achievement.

I only know from bits I’ve found in books and deduced from various sources and readings. I would definitely defer to your expertise having been involved in the industry during this period. I constantly learn from your postings here.

what I was trying to get at though was more about what makes one particular board more revered than another, and how it got that way in the first place.

It seems to me that there weren’t that many options at any one time and the boards that achieved popularity became so as a result of features vs price more so than a factor like “sound profile”.

if anything, Helios might have been one of the most primitive and stripped down of any of the high-end studio consoles and using entirely off the shelf parts.

This might be a kind of lesson in itself.

My guess is, even the M10 input transformers which are now highly regarded and sought after unobtanium were probably selected at the time for their low price rather than for having sone kind of premium specs or subjective sound quality.

 

[Brian Roth]

From the deep depths of my old/fading mind I recall reading an article about a Helios EQ which used a Radio Shack (or UK equivalent) transformer's primary as the inductor.

Bri

 

[orphanaudio]

Hello there fellow QEE (and Helios) admirers,
Thought I should add a few facts to the discussion

From a tape op article

“Throughout the '60s Quad-Eight was a sales company that had Electrodyne build their consoles, thus many of the early Quad-Eight consoles have Electrodyne stamped on the components inside.

Not exactly true,....
Quad-Eight started as "Quad-Eight Sound" (QES) in 1962 by Bud Bennet. QES built Film-Dub theaters, Editorial Suites and related sound recording/playback/mix systems for the big film studios as well as involvement with many major public Film exhibition theaters. QES would use would use parts from a wide range of vendors (Altec, Langevin, Westen Electric, Westrex, UA....) and found that Electrodyne's invention of the integrated channel strip in 1968 was ideal for building custom Film-Dubbing consoles economically, but QES would build whatever the customer wanted, with any brand parts or modules the studio's engineering staff specified. As I have time, I will scan and post the original QES company brochure and comparable Electrodyne and early QEE channel strip datasheets along with internal pix.
In many cases you would see custom QES consoles that had a lot of Electrodyne parts fitted to the surface, but the Electrodyne logo always remained on those modules faceplates if an Electrodyne part was used (so far I have never seen, nor has ANYONE else ever found or photographed a Quad-Eight module with Electrodyne guts).
The closest thing I have seen to the above quote is several very custom, matching Electrodyne 609L channel modules with multi-color QEE knobs fitted to them. I can certainly pull-up the original drawing out of the Electrodyne/Langevin documents archives for the unique QEE "Hat" knobs, dated before QES became QEE. So they were likely fabricated by Electrodyne, (at QES's request) specifically for console builds where QES was using Electrodyne modules and wanted a distinct look. Additionally, no stock Electrodyne module has ever shown up fitted with these QEE hat knobs, but I have defintely seen Electrodyne and QEE modules mis-identified in pictures as the other brand, despite the fairly clear difference between the engraved logos and specific logo placement for each brand. One of the "popular" rumours is that Quad-Eight simply engraved a "Q" above the Electrodyne "E" for their console builds, but there is not enough space between the top of the E-logo and the modules upper fixing screw countersink hole to do so.

I checked online, and the article is in TapeOp #49 Sept/)ct 2005. In that article, it is CLAIMED:

The next day I come back to work and all our schematics were out all over the place, on the floor with foot prints on them and everything and all our blueprint toner ink was gone. Well, sure enough Bud paid the truck driver for Electrodyne at the time and had come in and copied all our designs. All except the A-1000 op amp design, as we never did a schematic for just that reason!

Shrug.....
Bri

As to the great robbery at Electrodyne, I cannot say what happened at the Electrodyne factory that day (and will not,.. see conversations with Electrodyne and QEE staff below), but it came after QES was weeks away from delivering one of the largest Film-Mix consoles they had ever built, and staff arrived the factory one morning to find that every module (mostly Electrodyne parts) had been stolen along with all the support drawings. (oddly enough, none of those original missing Electrodyne modules has ever turned up, afaik).
Bud went to Electrodyne to purchase replacement modules ASAP and was dissappointed to be told that existing backorders for Electrodyne's wildly successful Music consoles had their manufacturing department backed up for months, and could not help Bud and QES out.
I have spoken at length with Don King, John Hall (Electrodyne founders, RIP) as well as several engineers and production staff from QEE about the "events" at each factory. All had different enough, and such emotionally charged recollections of the Electrodyne factory event, that I could not in good conscience (and especially in respect to good journalism) edit-down and re-tell something that had inadequate corroborating and/or conflicting facts across at least six different people who were actually there.
On the other hand the stories of QEE's response to their loss were close enough from person to person that I could trim off the high and low points and still come up with a coherent and fairly flat-fact story. Overall the tone of those conversations was more like "OK, that just happened (grumble-grumble...) and we still have to deliver a console,.... so here's what we did".

As to QES's position after their loss of all console modules and no way for Electrodyne to replace them in time, the engineering team met at the factory and decided they had been doing this for so long with everyone else parts (modifying stock parts from various companies, designing their own electronics for special functions) that they had the skills to design & build their own modules, so Quad-Eight Electronics (QEE circa 1968) was born.
SO......Yes!, the first QEE modules do look almost identical to Electrodyne channel strips, assign modules, summing and bus amp modules, and some of the switch types were the same brand, but these newly designed QEE modules had to physically fit in the existing console frame that QES had already built and partially wired, and the mix engineers at the film studio were expecting a console that looked and operated the same as ordered.
However!,... the QEE engineers understood that they did not have to use the same internal electronic design, pc board layouts or transformers and had their own advanced ideas about preamp and eq design, operating signal levels and opamp design. As a result, the innards of all QEE gear have little in common with the Electrodyne designs that they had previously used building custom QES products.

Below are just a few examples of how the two brands differ:
-Electrodyne: +24v single ended power, operated as split 12v rails across the opamps.
-QEE: +/28v power (56v total rail swing).
--------------------------------------------
-Electrodyne A1000 opamp: Fairchild uA709 opamp with transistor current follower.
-QEE AM-3 opamp: 5 transistor all discrete design.
---------------------------------------------
-Electrodyne: -6db to -12db internal operating level.
-QEE: 0db average internal operating level.
---------------------------------------------
-Electrodyne eq: Feedback type (cuts and boosts are typically not symmetrical around matching frequencies).
HF Peaking boost only @ 1k5, 3k, 5k, 10k, Shelving cut fixed at 10khz.
LF Shelving boost only @ 40, 100hz, Shelving cut fixed at 100z.
Similar curves to 1960's Altec 9061, Langevin 251 passive eq or Langevin AM-3a feedback eq.

-Quad-Eight eq: Active Reciprocal inductor type (boosts and cuts have equal and opposite curves at each frequency).
HF peaking and shelving @ 1k5, 3k, 5k, 10k.
LF Shelving at 50, 140, 250hz.
Reciprocal eq became new standard in equalization for the late 60's and on through the invention of the gyrator (eg: simulated inductors).

There are far more things that differ, than were in common with Electrodyne vs QEE designs, many are rather small technical details, but all sum up for very different sonics, signal path level handling and a diverging set of features as time went on.

The one thing Electrodyne and QEE did actually share back then (and still do today) is the amazing sonics and design innovation of custom wound Reichenbach/Cinemag transformer and inductors, still made today with the same relentless attention to detail and quality as when they were first designed (wow,... that sounded like a shameless plug.....) ok, well deserved,... but still,...I do love what those magnetics uniquely do for vintage and new products from each brand.

Obviously Electrodyne caught up quickly by adding active reciprocal eq with their new 711 2-band and 712 9-band graphic channel strips and for several years it was always in question who could offer the best console for each studios needs.
Eventually Don McLaughlin and John hall sold Electrodyne to what would be a series of large corporations who wanted Electrodyne (and Langevin, purchased by Electrodyne about 1969) IP for their broadcast audio products, while QEE grabbed even more market share with bigger and more feature packed consoles many featuring the signature 3-band inductor eq and discrete transistor preamps that have appeared on countless hits from 1970 to today.
Don & John having parted ways with Electrodyne almost immediately started Sphere Electronics (with early internal designs remarkably similar to John Hall's genius at Electrodyne) where even more remarkable consoles came on the market.
As the Electrodyne/Langevin product line was turned towards the new and highly profitable TV/Radio Broadcast market and Sphere was getting off to a running start in the Music and fixed-install business, Quad-Eight began to command a huge part of the Music industry, despite heavy competition from API, Harrison, MCI, Sphere of course, and notable others, with QEE almost completely dominating the Film console industry for decades (acquiring Westrex along the way,... but that is another story entirely).

As always, if anyone can come up with solidly backed facts to refute (or support and expand on) the above, my ears are open.

Thank you,

Ken Hirsch / Director of Engineering
Orphan Audio www.orphanaudio.com
Quad-Eight Electronics www.quadeightelectronics.com
Electrodyne Audio www.electrodyneaudio.com (a division of Orphan Audio)

 

[pucho812]

Glad you joined the discussion KEN, hope all is well in AZ

 

[gar381]

Thanks Ken

Enjoyed the above read !!

Gary

 

[boji]

I will scan and post the original QES company brochure and comparable Electrodyne and early QEE channel strip datasheets along with internal pix.

This thread..all y'all amazing.

 

[calaverasgrande]

First real mixer I ever got to use was the Quad Eight at Leo De Gar Kulka's place on Harrison. I believe it was 32x16?
Split with a bare bones monitor section. EQ looked a lot like those Melcor EQs, but also like Electrodyne. It was very oddball to me then. Hard to change the frequency with those little tiny pointers.
Sounded amazing on everything.
Only time I used any other EQ is when we patched a Pultec on the kick to the thing Pultecs are known for. But also because how often does a 20 year old get to play with a real Pultec?
I was going to school for audio engineering there (College of Recording Arts) so I brought in a friends band for my project. And helped on other peoples stuff as well. Never heard electric guitar sound better.
For rock and roll guitar I loved a Beyer 201 straight into the desk with a little edge added on the way into the Stephens 16 track.
When I got to mix a full band on that Quad Eight I was also surprised by how ballistic the drums came across. We couldn't get much bass out of the monitors due to the control room acoustics. But you still got a very punchy sound. I suppose thats the headroom.
As far as the cumulative sound of the Quad Eight after going through it twice on the way to 2 track, it never gave the impression that it was getting mushy or running out of gas on the 2 buss. Just clean clean clean. Though not in that slightly bright way that SSL stuff is. Darker and more mid focused.
There was no stridency stacking up or muddy low end harmonics like I experience on lesser consoles that generally have a good rep.
Someone once told me that Leo's Quad Eight was used for Apocalypse Now? I'm not sure how true that is. Seemed small for that kind of work.