REAL AKG C451B VS CHINA451B

[soony]

I haven't lived in an English-speaking country, and my proficiency in English may not be accurate, so expressions could be awkward. Please bear with me.

While searching to purchase the AKG C451B, I came across a clever Chrome browser that, based on collected cookie data, displayed a FAKE version of the C451B through Google ads. Driven by curiosity, I clicked on the ad, only to be faced with a product that unmistakably screamed, "I am fake," as it was boldly black, in stark contrast to the genuine C451B finished in Satin Nickel, as shown in the photos.

Although AliExpress has all sorts of items, including clones of brands like Sennheiser, Shure, Samson, and Audio-Technica, as well as entire product lines imitating Neumann, such as TLM or U87 AI clones, I've mainly been interested in SDC (Small Diaphragm Condenser) microphones typically classified as pencil mics. However, the FAKE C451B captured my attention, and the price of around 180 euros per pair (plus an additional 18 euros for customs!) made it a luxury to purchase based solely on curiosity. The seller operated a very small online store with a cumulative sales volume of fewer than 100 items. When I requested circuit diagrams in our conversation, the seller couldn't provide them or take photos of the circuit. Still, they claimed the product was a one-to-one match and cautioned that the circuit diagram might not be 100% accurate. Despite the hesitations, enticed by claims of remarkable performance, I decided to make the purchase as a New Year's luck test.

Although the distance from China to Korea is relatively short (overland or train trade is not possible, thanks to the pig blocking the way, lol), it mainly relies on sea freight. The seller's item took approximately 2 days to reach the port, half a day for the ship to travel from the Chinese port to the Korean port, 2 days for customs clearance procedures, and another day from customs departure to reaching my home. In total, it took about 6 days to receive the product.

Upon receiving the product and opening the housing, I was astonished. The circuit of this Chinese replica perfectly matched the circuit I had seen in the technical manual of the AKG C451B. Even though circuit board photos of the C451B model couldn't be found anywhere online, the circuit diagram was attached to the technical manual, and I had checked it beforehand. To make a comparison, I immediately purchased one genuine C451B through the official distribution channel that had received certification. Since Korea is a small country, ordering before midnight meant receiving the item by the next day's lunch.

As soon as I received the genuine C451B, I opened it up and discovered that it provided individual frequency measurement values. It was akin to purchasing high-end LG or Dell monitors that come with individual calibration test measurements. As it was my first purchase of a high-end microphone, I was quite amazed. In Korea, the C451B costs around 440 euros. Thomann sells it for 289 euros. Interestingly, on U.S. sites like Sweetwater, it goes for around 600 euros.

On the other hand, among non-domestic microphones of a similar grade, Shure's KSM141 is priced at 409 euros on Sweetwater, 366 euros in Korea, and 493 euros on Thomann. Anyway, getting back to the main point, when I opened up the genuine C451B's housing to reveal the circuit board, I was surprised to see it closely resembling the CHINA451B.

Feeling a pang of conscience, I ordered one more genuine C451B to pair with the original. Well... I don't have much time, so I couldn't do precise recording tests, but I did a rough test with the ambient noise at home. The comparison is between Lauten Audio's LA-120 and CHINA451B. I plan to do a recording comparison between the genuine C451B and the Chinese replica either tomorrow or over the weekend.

Honestly, it's scary. A few years ago, semiconductors like displays and NAND memory were the best products produced by the manufacturing country I live in. However, now Chinese-made LCDs and NAND memory are growing scarily, with China already excelling in making LCDs, and soon they might become the best in producing NAND memory and OLED displays. In the same context, it's not impossible that China might produce very high-quality microphones or speakers. Even for us Koreans, until recently, Chinese-made LCDs were treated as cheap knockoffs, but now many models of LG monitors use Chinese-made LCDs. As for microphones, is today's Chinese copycat a mere copycat, or will it be seen in broadcasting stations or studios the day after tomorrow? Surprisingly, just 20 years ago, Samsung and LG monitors were treated as cheap in the global market, and Japan Display was known for professional use. However, not long ago, all the advanced monitors' LCDs, such as those from Eizo, Dell, and others, changed to LG. Although Samsung acquired Harman Kardon and practically became AKG's parent company, even in Korea, Samsung service centers don't handle AKG products. Distribution networks, repair networks, and services are all handled by small-scale distributors. Interestingly, even in wireless earphone cases like the Buds series, "sound by AKG" is engraved.

Anyway, Chinese products: The rise of products like Edifier in speakers or TAKSTAR in microphones has positive aspects, allowing for high quality at a low price. However, the frightening part is the disappearance of the genuine article.


Of course, the recording was a bit off. It's challenging to compare an upright piano with old background noise in an acoustically challenging environment.
Can you guess which one is the LAUTEN between TEST1 and TEST2?

 

[vintagelove]

Will the AKG capsule fit on the copy?

 

[andia]

Will the AKG capsule fit on the copy?

doubt it.akg ck capsules are screw on, it looks completely different mechanically.

 

[soony]

Certainly, there are differences in physical components like screws and springs. The capsules are naturally different, and upon closer inspection of the main body, neither the C451B nor its clones appear to have a DC-biased transformerless output capacitor microphone circuit. In other words, they are both ECM (Electret Condenser Microphone) types, suggesting that the two capsules should be compatible.

I have already confirmed instances where the capsule of the C451B was successfully used in NEEWER NW-410 and Behringer C-2 models through research. The microphones operated normally. (Source: ameblo.jp) Even if you don't understand Japanese, you can scroll to view pictures that confirm the replacement of the capsule.

 

[damien]

I just stumble uppon this microphone pair today and was wondering if it was better sounding than the usual Alctron T02A / MXL 604.

 

[narcolepzzz]

I plan to do a recording comparison between the genuine C451B and the Chinese replica either tomorrow or over the weekend.

Of course, the recording was a bit off. It's challenging to compare an upright piano with old background noise in an acoustically challenging environment.
Can you guess which one is the LAUTEN between TEST1 and TEST2?

Which is the Lauten? I would guess the brighter test is the clone. Did you get a chance to test it against the genuine c451b?

 

[soony]

Which is the Lauten? I would guess the brighter test is the clone. Did you get a chance to test it against the genuine c451b?

I don't remember well right now, but I think TEST1 was probably a Lauten La-120. When I wrote this post, I think I did some comparison recordings as a pair over the weekend, but I couldn't upload them. I was too busy and forgot about it. I'll try to compare them tomorrow. Also, I don't recommend this Chinese knock-off. The circuit is identical, but the electret capsule is different, so the noise level seems to be high.

 

[cyrano]

AKG no longer exists...

It's just a brand, operated by it's owners. Production is in China.

 

[soony]

AKG는 더 이상 존재하지 않습니다.

그것은 단지 소유자가 운영하는 브랜드일 뿐입니다. 생산은 중국에서 이루어집니다.

AKG still exists, though it's not as severe as Crown. While the Vienna office (essentially the core of AKG) has been closed, they still manufacture microphones like the C414 and C451B at the new factory in Pécs, Hungary. The Chinese production plant is a story more than 20 years old. However, under the Samsung-Harman group, the focus is no longer on traditional audio equipment. You can see this with products like Layr and Ara.

 

[soony]

Which is the Lauten? I would guess the brighter test is the clone. Did you get a chance to test it against the genuine c451b?

It's just an excuse, but playing the piano after half a year makes me feel dizzy. I'm sorry that my performance skills are not good. This is a 451b pair test. The answers are in the text file. I'll also attach each audio file."

 

[telewulf]

Wow, thanx group diy for the opportunity to exchange experiences with a colleague from as far away as Korea! And thank you, Soony, for your detailed description!

When I looked at your pics of the interiour, i thought ... well ... if that was a C541, that I saw in soonys pics, what the heck do I own? It doesn´t have anything in common with my (admittedly VERY old) C451 CB. Soony, I´m really curious, what the "real" AKG looks like inside! Could it be, that it is just as far away from my old one, as it is from the chinese rip-off?
Anyway: with mine, the pcb is not soldered directly to the output pins, mine has got a output transformer, mine provides polarizing voltage ... How on earth can an electret mic with a transformerless amp bear the same name???

Could that be, because a C451 still is a money spinner?
And might that as well aply for the name AKG? ... or Neumann? ... or Telefunken?

When I read that Telefunken hab been dissolved in 1967 - my year of birth by the way - I thought: If that was true, how could they come up with the M15 tape machine in 1972, that has been my faithful tool for the last 30 years???
Well, the answer ist: the comany had been dissolved, but tape recorder production (and the brand name with it) went back to AEG, one of the two founding companies of Telefunken.

(By the way: Telefunken had been founded in 1903 as a joint venture by AEG and Siemens by a command of the German Kaiser Wilhelm II, in order to "invent" a wireless system that could rival that of Marconi in Great Britain. I put inverted commas around "invent" because it was really a case of blatant espionage. Without such a wireless system Germany could never have started WW I. So it is no exaggeration if I say, the sole reason for founding Telefunken was war efforts ... Some things never change, do they?)

When after a dissolution of a company you can still make money by selling the licence to use the name ... Well, why wouldn´t you?
So my theory is, Harman bought AKG to cash in on the name, Sennheiser bought Neumann, to cash in on the name, some Americans bought the name of Telefunken Elektroakustik to cash in on the name.
And Chinese companies cash in by stealing the names.

best wishes from Bremen,
Wulf

 

[Geariatric]

The mics in question here are the AKG C451B—be they the ‘legit’ version, or clones/knockoffs/gray market/etc.

The B came out in the early aughts, IIRC.
It’s electret, transformerless, no interchangeable parts (capsules/knuckles/whatever), etc.
As you’ve noticed, the 451B doesn’t really have much to do with the various original models of 451, aside from mimicking the general appearance and claiming to sound just like a 451EB with cardioid capsule. (This is what I was told at AES by an AKG rep when they came out 20ish years ago.)

So, to answer your question, I think you’ll find that the “real” 451B is just as far away from your 451 CB as this Chinese one—which, by the looks of it, might not be a “ripoff” per se, but maybe someone scooting a few boxes out the back door of the factory on the sly.
Although, as noted above by Soony, these have different/cheaper capsules.
So, to extend the conjecture a little further, maybe:
- the “real” capsules are made in the Hungary facility Soony mentioned above and were the only missing part, so replaced by whatever cheap cap would fit to sell them on Ali
- or, current production now uses different/cheaper capsules and these are accurate off the assembly line
- or, of course, yeah, these are just complete knockoffs. Haha

 

[soony]

Wow, thanx group diy for the opportunity to exchange experiences with a colleague from as far away as Korea! And thank you, Soony, for your detailed description!

When I looked at your pics of the interiour, i thought ... well ... if that was a C541, that I saw in soonys pics, what the heck do I own? It doesn´t have anything in common with my (admittedly VERY old) C451 CB. Soony, I´m really curious, what the "real" AKG looks like inside! Could it be, that it is just as far away from my old one, as it is from the chinese rip-off?
Anyway: with mine, the pcb is not soldered directly to the output pins, mine has got a output transformer, mine provides polarizing voltage ... How on earth can an electret mic with a transformerless amp bear the same name???

Could that be, because a C451 still is a money spinner?
And might that as well aply for the name AKG? ... or Neumann? ... or Telefunken?

When I read that Telefunken hab been dissolved in 1967 - my year of birth by the way - I thought: If that was true, how could they come up with the M15 tape machine in 1972, that has been my faithful tool for the last 30 years???
Well, the answer ist: the comany had been dissolved, but tape recorder production (and the brand name with it) went back to AEG, one of the two founding companies of Telefunken.

(By the way: Telefunken had been founded in 1903 as a joint venture by AEG and Siemens by a command of the German Kaiser Wilhelm II, in order to "invent" a wireless system that could rival that of Marconi in Great Britain. I put inverted commas around "invent" because it was really a case of blatant espionage. Without such a wireless system Germany could never have started WW I. So it is no exaggeration if I say, the sole reason for founding Telefunken was war efforts ... Some things never change, do they?)

When after a dissolution of a company you can still make money by selling the licence to use the name ... Well, why wouldn´t you?
So my theory is, Harman bought AKG to cash in on the name, Sennheiser bought Neumann, to cash in on the name, some Americans bought the name of Telefunken Elektroakustik to cash in on the name.
And Chinese companies cash in by stealing the names.

best wishes from Bremen,
Wulf

Hello, Mr. Wulf. Thank you very much for sharing the valuable photos and insights about the microphones. I fully understand your points, and I apologize if my use of the term "REAL" caused any discomfort. This term was merely used to distinguish between the genuine product and the Chinese knockoffs. While I realize you might not be particularly interested in the internals of the C451B, I'll attach some comparison photos between the genuine article and the knockoff for your reference. It seems my curiosity about the Chinese knockoff might mirror your curiosity about the C451B.

Defining terms like original, real, and heritage can be quite subjective and depend heavily on one's perspective and values. From my viewpoint, it's a matter that varies according to individual values and thinking, often delving into philosophical territory.

As you know, AKG never marketed the C451B as a reissue of the original C451, which is quite telling. They limited it to being a 'reinterpretation.' In reality, the frequency response and tonal characteristics of a microphone depend more on the capsule than the circuitry. Upon disassembling the C451B's capsule, you'll find its appearance and structure very similar to the CK-1, with the major difference being that the backplate has a fixed electret. This approach is akin to how AKG created derivatives like the C214 and C314 from the C414 by adding a back-electret to a capsule similar to the CK12. Despite this, the C451B does not sound like the EB, just as the C214 and C314 do not sound like the C414.

Fundamentally, there is no inherent superiority or inferiority between electret microphones and DC-biased 'true' condenser microphones (a term popularized by Neumann's marketing strategy). Both have their pros and cons. Electret technology, still relatively recent with its inventor still alive, has come a long way from its early days of poor quality due to material and technological limitations. The C451B, released in the 21st century, exemplifies these advancements. Companies like B&K (DPA) and Audio-Technica produce high-end back-electret microphones not because they lack the capability to make 'true' condensers but because a well-made back-electret can sometimes outperform a 'true' condenser. I trust you are well aware of this. The main downside, often emphasized, is the potential degradation of the electret charge over time, although this hasn't yet been an issue for the C451B in typical usage after 22 years (according to AKG staff). Conversely, does the vintage CK-1 capsule last forever without such issues? Many people dismiss electrets based on past prejudices while overlooking the natural lifespan limitations of condenser capsules.
Regarding transformers, both transformer-based balanced outputs and FET-based active buffer outputs have their advantages and disadvantages. The soldering of PCBs using modern SMT technology is quite appropriate today.

Now, does a merger or acquisition necessarily mean the loss of a company's originality? I believe the company's actions post-acquisition are what matter. Telefunken Elektroakustik might not have a strong historical tradition, but if it had faithfully restored past glories, the negative views wouldn't be as prevalent. For example, merely rebranding products, as seen here, is problematic: http://recordinghacks.com/articles/telefunken-m16-and-apex-460-comparison. Companies like Goldmund Sound Systems, despite their shorter history of nearly 50 years and no M&A, have also caused significant disruption in the audio industry due to questionable practices.

Did AKG engage in brand swapping after Harman acquired it? Although they did sell products like the Perception series, made entirely in China, at least they were affordable. Looking back at AKG's history, it started in post-war Vienna, where their handmade microphones were often traded for food instead of money. Over time, AKG grew, expanded globally, and increased its debt within manageable limits until the 1993 Austrian economic crisis led to liquidity issues, resulting in its sale to Harman. If not for this, AKG might have ended up in a museum 30 years ago. Post-acquisition, AKG has grown significantly. The recent closure of the Vienna office doesn't necessarily mean job losses, as former employees have founded companies like Lewitt and Austrian Audio, claiming to maintain the 'REAL' AKG identity. Here's a photo of the manufacturing process of the OC18 (reportedly made in Austria). There's a significant difference between 'Made in Austria' and 'Designed in Austria.'

As you mentioned, wars often drive technological advances. Microphones like the CMV3, developed for effective propaganda, are still sold today under names like CMV563 using original PVC capsules. Perhaps only companies like Gefell retain such true originality.

German technology is indeed impressive. The world's first dynamic microphone was developed by Beyerdynamic, the first condenser microphone by Neumann, and the first electret microphone by German inventor Gerhard Sessler. Could China have developed such knockoffs without any help? China's first microphone company was also built by Telefunken in 1953. During the Cold War, Telefunken engineers transferred technology to Beijing, a collaboration that continued until the 1960s. Beijing translates to 'northern city' in Chinese, and with a microphone factory in the north, another state-owned microphone company was established near Nanjing in the south, namely Shanghai Felio, which is essentially the predecessor of today's SE Electronics. Similar to the relationship between TAKSTAR and LEWITT, Telefunken's microphone manufacturing technology has evolved, and modern Chinese microphones are quite excellent. Even Abbey Road Studios use SE microphones. Although Telefunken no longer exists, perhaps the true originality lies in companies like 797 Beijing, which inherited and developed Telefunken's microphone technology.

RØDE, now a significant audio equipment company, started in a small Australian audio shop. In the 1980s, they rebranded and sold microphones from 797 Beijing for 20 years, eventually using the profits to build their own manufacturing facility in Australia. So, where does RØDE's identity begin? From a small audio shop? Chinese rebranded microphones? Or when they began self-manufacturing? Nonetheless, I can confidently say that the Chinese knockoff microphones I posted are not originals.

I apologize for the lengthy ramble. Thank you.

 

[cyrano]

The difference is Rode has a research and development lab. I also don't mind MXL making a buck with reasonably priced Chinese mics. I also like AKG's Perception range.

AKG no longer has all of that, since that was in the Vienna site. The Hungarian BEAG site was mainly a foundry for AKG. They have made a lot of great stuff before AKG acquired the company, but AKG did buy it mainly to produce mic bodies. There's no dead room, for instance. I don't think they ever made mic capsules in the past. All their mics are Sennheiser/Beyer/AKG lookalikes or relabelled products.

I once researched the AKG 451. I never succeeded in compiling a definitive list of models and variations. The 451 being sold today has no relation at all with the "real" AKG ones. Today's 451 doesn't even have a separate capsule, for instance.

And even the list of capsules isn't a finished job. I came across a wider (Oktava style) omni recently that I'd never heard of before. Anyhow, those capsules are near unobtanium today, so let's not waste our time with them. Plenty of affordable Chinese stuff out there that isn't bad at all.

 

[telewulf]

Well, dear soony, to be honest, I am really exited about what you dismissively called a "lengthy ramble" - so thanks a lot for sharing your insight!

Furthermore, I agree with you on many more points than you might have expected:

Defining terms like original, real, and heritage can be quite subjective and depend heavily on one's perspective and values.

I couldn´t have put it better myself.
And most certainly I am not the one to judge what is "real" and what is not. So I find it very hard to draw the line between original and fake, but I also think that the discussion about it is really necessary.
VW came out with the model "Golf" in 1973. Of course when you buy a Golf today, it hasn´t got anything to do with that car from 1973 and you wouldn´t expect that either. Nobody in their right mind would call it a fake just because it is not exactly the same car as 50 years previously.
But then again, it´s a completely different world with mircophones. You can sell microphones that are as close as can be to the ones Georg Neumann launched in 1947 - try that one with a car and see, where you´d end up!

As you know, AKG never marketed the C451B as a reissue of the original C451, which is quite telling.

No, as a matter of fact, I didn´t know that.

there is no inherent superiority or inferiority between electret microphones and DC-biased 'true' condenser microphones

We are in agreement there.

does the vintage CK-1 capsule last forever without such issues?

No, mine for instance did not. The diaphragm did peel of for half the length of the circumference. Nothing lasts forever ... *SIGH!*

Now, does a merger or acquisition necessarily mean the loss of a company's originality?

I don´t know if that necessarily has to be so, but in the cases of AKG and Neumann it definitely has been in my humble opinion. With Telefunken it is a different thing, nowadays company has just bought the licence to use the name and hasn´t got anything to do with the company that once existed in Germany.

Microphones like the CMV3, developed for effective propaganda, are still sold today under names like CMV563 using original PVC capsules. Perhaps only companies like Gefell retain such true originality.

Please forgive me for being pedantic, but was the CMV3 not issued in 1927?
No effective propaganda then on German radio, that came 5 years later.
But anyway: An interesting point of view and as far as Gefell is concerned, once again we are in accordance.

China's first microphone company was also built by Telefunken in 1953.

Now that information was completely new to me! Really? 797 audio was founded with the help from Telefunken?
You know, the first "real" condenser microphones I could afford, were CR-73 and I am pretty certain that they were built by 797 audio - see pics below - and although over the years the diaphragms slackened so that you can today "switch" them off just by breathing on them, I still hold them in great esteem.
Oh and by the way: I would never call them a knock-off, rather "87-inspired"

But there is one aspect of our beloved old microphones from the 40ies or 50ies, that particularely indears them to me and again it has to do with the time emediately after WW II.
I started work at the NDR in Hamburg in 1991 and every morning I left my bike in the very spot, where 40 years ago the very barrack hab been stood, where young men, that had been trained as radio men in the war, did develop he tools for a new broadcasting system: the microphones M49/M50 as well as the amplifier V72. It was 5 years after the war and out of total distruction and with allmost nothing on their hands, these propably war-traumatized men created what has completely stood the test of time. I take deep bow before their achievements.
And I think it is something completely different, if today we try to resurrect the magic of these achievements. We have a cornucopia of technical inventions at our disposal, that those men never had.

Please let me give you one more example:
I once asked Siegfried Thiersch if he could reskin an original M7 capsule from the 30ies and furthermore if he could fit it out with an active rear diaphragm, so I would have the opportunity to switch polar patterns. His answer was: "Difficult and dangerous. Maybe I will succeed, maybe I won´t." Well, in the end he did succeed, but I wondered, why his answer had been so ... enigmatic, for the want of a better word.
Later maybe I found the answer: In the 30ies there were almost no materials available, with dielectric properties that made them usable in the giga-ohm-relm. And the materials that did exist were terribly difficult to work mechanicly. When I encountered this material myself, it not just looked like amber, it also behaved like amber, in other words: it crumbled when I tried to drill a hole into it.
Or maybe the central spacer in the shaft of my M7 Lolliepop really was made of amber, who knows? But anyway: I bow my head before the man, who made the M1-1 work in 1927!

Oh, a pro pos 1927:

The world's first dynamic microphone was developed by Beyerdynamic, the first condenser microphone by Neumann, and the first electret microphone by German inventor Gerhard Sessler.

I call myself lucky to own a Beyer M19 myself an I have to admit, that untill now I had never heared
the name Gerhard Sessler, but I am affraid that the crown for developing the first condenser microphone I have to rip from Geord Neumanns head ... The Western Electric 394 had been released two years earlier.

Now it seems to be my turn to thank you for bearing with me in my own lengthy rambles.

Best wishes from Bremen,
Wulf